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Free Mapping Discussion - from HERs to Google - BAJR Host - 7th May 2009
An intersting comment on the HER thread by
Pete Insole
Quote:quote:In light of the discussion about the use of Google Maps to present HER data, I had an interesting discussion with our Corporate GIS people today. Apparently using Google Map to display any OS derived data is a breach of the terms and conditions of the OS licence agreement.
There has been a long debate between Google and the OS about terms of use because at present if you display your data on Google Map you are giving Google the rights to the data. This is an infringement of the OS licence as all HER data (to my knowledge) is derived from OS data in that it uses the Projected National Grid for location purposes.
There are plenty of Local Authorities who currently use Google Map to display a variety of data as a cheap option to a full web map service, however, Bristol City Council have been advised directly by OS that to do so would be an infringement of the terms and conditions of use and we will not be using Google in this way.
If anyone has found a way round this legal issue I'd be interested to hear, but if you haven't you may be liable for some hefty OS fines. Interestingly negotiations between OS and Microsoft Virtual Earth resulted in Microsoft changing their terms of use while Google refused to alter their position.
We have the full FAQ from OS explaining the issues if anyone wants a copy, but I'm sure the document is available on their website.
Well this is intersting and affects us all.... this discussion, now being played out online, and reported by the guardian, may be a glimmer of hope.
http://www.freeourdata.org.uk/blog/
Reportedly, the govt. are monitoring the mood and comments, and so, maybe, just maybe, the insideous money grabbing and 18th century charging policies may be ... reviewed!
It is the same for our archaeology data... it should be freely available (where appropriate)
I dislike when you find an article online, and discover that you have to pay to view... especialy if it was a piece of work paid for with public money.
So have a look at the blog, and see what you think
"Entrepreneurs are simply those who understand that there is little difference between obstacle and opportunity and are able to turn both to their advantage."
Niccolo Machiavelli
Free Mapping Discussion - from HERs to Google - Sith - 7th May 2009
I've been following this for a while now. I can't quite decide who's worst: Google (and some of the other online repsoitories) for insisting that they 'own' anything placed within their sites; or the OS for screwing money out of public bodies for material (i.e. OS maps and derived data) created at public expense.
D. Vader
Senior Consultant
Vader Maull & Palpatine
Archaeological Consultants
Your lack of archaeological imagination disappoints me Curator
Free Mapping Discussion - from HERs to Google - voice of reason - 7th May 2009
quote: I dislike when you find an article online, and discover that you have to pay to view... especialy if it was a piece of work paid for with public money.
why is it different to paying for a journal or monograph? You don't expect to get those sent to you for nothing. I find it extraordinary that the myth persists that everything on the internet should be free. That way lies the quality assurance and trustworthiness of Wikipedia!
Free Mapping Discussion - from HERs to Google - kevin wooldridge - 7th May 2009
I don't want anyone to think that I support the global corporate entity that is Google, but I am on their side in this arguement and think that the OS don't have a leg to stand on.
Google maps, Google Earth, Goggle what you will doesn't use the OS Projected National Grid it uses UTM. If the OS are claiming that any location data derived in the UK is their copyright and theirs alone they are wrong.I could go out with a hand held GPS tomorrow and locate all kinds of locations and post to Google and what do I owe the OS? Nothing.
I can also take any HER data I want and convert the inconvenient grid system they provide to UTM and what do I owe the OS? Nothing.
I agree that there may be an issue with OS copyright and map grids in all sorts of publication, but as far as I can see it doesn't apply to Google in this instance. So I think that Pete's IT department have muddled the issue here.
With peace and consolation hath dismist, And calm of mind all passion spent...
Free Mapping Discussion - from HERs to Google - BAJR Host - 7th May 2009
I agree wholeheartedly... I only get peeved by documents that have already been paid for (via HLF, or some other funding body) being only available as pay per view... there is also a fallacy about paper versus web - where you can actually have free web view and pay for paper copy and there is very little effect
for example the Journal of Medical Ethics... you pay for the paper copy but can read the journal free online...
Another example.. I can read the PSAS journal online for free... but also want the paper copy on my shelf... etc.
By that concept, I guess that as BAJR collects info and provides it free... everything from courses, societies, guides, videos etc.. etc.. (not forgetting Past Horizons - proof you can have a quality magazine that costs nothing to read) should be pay per view..
The guardian has as free view website, but I still buy the Newspaper... I could go on, but it is essential that the new media is understood... it can pay for itself, and free is not nessesarily free (if you know what I mean)
Try selling your Grey Literature report of a watching brief in Cheem... or better still, make it available free online...
HOWEVER :face-topic:
The Americans make the entire NAtional MAppng available free, from maps to GIS counties etc... they are a public service...
"Entrepreneurs are simply those who understand that there is little difference between obstacle and opportunity and are able to turn both to their advantage."
Niccolo Machiavelli
Free Mapping Discussion - from HERs to Google - BAJR Host - 7th May 2009
ooopps.. wrote at the same time [:I]
For Kevin, I guess it they are saying the original maps that the HERs were based on are OS... ergo... the ability to know where they are, is due to the OS, we would have to go out there and relocate them all...
not such a bad idea for the 675 unemployed?"Entrepreneurs are simply those who understand that there is little difference between obstacle and opportunity and are able to turn both to their advantage."
Niccolo Machiavelli
Free Mapping Discussion - from HERs to Google - P_Insole - 8th May 2009
Obviously this raises serious issues. The Guardian campaign is a ray of hope, but at the moment all discussion about who is right or wrong is somewhat irrelevent because in legal terms if you put your HER data on a Google map you are in the wrong and could be heavily fined.
I support the free our data campaign, but I would also warn against using Google as a web map service for your data because of their terms and conditions of use. It isn't really free nor is it very good mapping. There are better options out there as Mary Spence of the Royal Cartographic Society stated during her excellent paper at the IFA.
Free Mapping Discussion - from HERs to Google - John the geek - 8th May 2009
Whilst I can accept that the OS have copyright over their publications, the National Grid reference must be public domain. after all, the surveys on which these are based were paid for out of OUR money, through taxes.
A little ignorance goes a long way.
Free Mapping Discussion - from HERs to Google - kevin wooldridge - 8th May 2009
...and according to another web site, both most recent OS grid-systems (the 1936 and 1955 versions) are well over 50 years old and must be past copyright....
With peace and consolation hath dismist, And calm of mind all passion spent...
Free Mapping Discussion - from HERs to Google - andrewl - 11th May 2009
The three main issues with HERs using Google Maps are:
- Advertising. Google *will* start placing adverts on their maps at some point. They have to give 6 months notice in advance, but any responsible HERs using GM will have strategy in place for this. I'm sure.
- QoS. You have no contract with Google, and you get what you pay for. If GM goes down for a day, so does your mapping.
- Data ownership. The thorny issue of derived data...
Of some relevance to this topic is this post and associated comments:
http://www.freeourdata.org.uk/blog/?p=262
and this
http://www.edparsons.com/2008/11/who-reads-the-terms-of-service-anyway/
And a quick sidenote - Google Maps uses a Spherical Mercator (ie Mercator overlaid onto a sphere, not an elliposoid), not UTM.
Ideally though, the HERs would provide API access to this data so people could start doing interesting stuff with it, rather than just looking at dots on a map.
