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+--- Thread: Self employed site assistants? (/showthread.php?tid=999)
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Self employed site assistants? - trowelfodder - 2nd July 2008
Have just been offered a job as a site assistant at ?60 per day but have been told that I would have to be self employed. Surely this practice went out a long time ago?
How can I register as self employed if I am essetially an employee? Read the BAJR guide and turned the job the job down!!
Is anyone finding that certain companies are still using this method to avoid paying any benifits?
Self employed site assistants? - BAJR Host - 2nd July 2008
Would be interested to know who that is... [hm]
Off list of course.
As trowel says... read this
http://www.bajr.org/Documents/Employed_SelfEmployed.pdf
as a self employed arch, you are liable for everything.. including your holidays, insurance, tax, equipment Perfectly possible of course, but 60 quid a day is not going to go far.... :face-confused:
"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu
Self employed site assistants? - Oxbeast - 2nd July 2008
I am under the impression that bogus self employment is quite widespread in the construction industry, though there are efforts to stamp it out.
http://www.ucatt.info/content/view/154/27/
You can't really be self employed if you have no say over how the job gets done. Also, ?60 a day is more or less what you get as a digger. ?150 quid a day sounds like a more reasonable day rate for the self employed...
Self employed site assistants? - oldgirl - 2nd July 2008
That was also my thought Mr Host and Oxbeast. I know a few people who choose to be self-employed, as it works for them. But I don't think that it's the way forward for most people at all. Especially at those rates and when it's used as a cop-out over insurance, leave, sick pay, employers NI contributions (never underestimate that one!) etc.
Also, the link that hosty put up is very important, because it (if I remember rightly!) explains that just because someone else says your self-employed doesn't mean HMRC will consider you to be so!
Self employed site assistants? - Unitof1 - 2nd July 2008
Trowelfodder You will find that hostys self-employed guide is not a guide to how to be a self-employed digger, more like a list of every reason why digging cant possibly be a self employed position.
It does seem to me that you have been offered a job and that you have turned it down. That?s a good place to be and that you have in many ways undertaken some crucial adrenaline rush aspects of being self employed. I presume that you have assessed that the price was not right. I hope that the people offering the job were not attempting to take advantage. Only you can gauge. Oxbeast seems to have reiterated the hosty-esk warnings of bogus self-employment status but then suggested the apparently more reasonable rate of 150 quids that would overcome that small matter, a matter presumably having been used as a bargaining tool in arriving at a price. Trowelfodder and Oxbeast, there is hope for you yet, you might even be naturals.
In as much as you had the opportunity to negotiate I think that you will find it very hard to work out a price as there is unfortunately virtually no help or models emanating from the cuddly love in world of archaeology where everything is based on jobs with pensions and RAOs. You could look at hostys pay scales and try and work out where the work involved equates to and from that a rate to allow for all the downsides, which hosty I am sure will be quick to point out, as I understand it he has found self-employment himself and may have some ideas about the costs of the downsides.
Being self-employed is not only an archaeology problem. It politically is a mess in this country mainly (but there is a history) because I think that self-employment is seen as an entry level business position and that the self-employed are imagined to be about to immediately employ someone else and become an employer, oh circles within circles. As pointed out in hostys guide one apparent test of the self-employed is the ability to pay someone else to do the work that you are contracted to do. What you are being drawn into is whether you are a service or are you producing a product and the nature of that product. That?s why I harp on about copyright and context sheets. A good example of the self-employed mess is
http://www.fsb.org.uk/
who are one of the few examples that make the ifa look good
An alternative route might have been to take the job and then on the same day ring up the Inland Revenue and ask them to assess your position. You will find that they are not against you, unlike the impression that the oldgirl gives, but they would be very interested in the so-called employer as the legalities are against the employer. The Inland Revenue are not in a position to let it rest and the out comes could be that the benefits of employment are added to your situation, but until your employed no crime has been committed; go on, who is it.
Having self-employment sprung upon someone is not the best way to go about it. A better way is to realise that self-employment is an option and prepare for it.
Self employed site assistants? - Windbag - 2nd July 2008
Quote:quote: Surely this practice went out a long time ago?Nope
Quote:quote: Is anyone finding that certain companies are still using this method to avoid paying any benifits?Yep
Self employed site assistants? - oldgirl - 2nd July 2008
Quote : An alternative route might have been to take the job and then on the same day ring up the Inland Revenue and ask them to assess your position. You will find that they are not against you, unlike the impression that the oldgirl gives, but they would be very interested in the so-called employer as the legalities are against the employer.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to give that impression, quite the opposite. It would indeed be the employer that they'd be interested in. I had meant to make the point that just because someone *tells* you that you're self-employed doesn't make it true.
Self employed site assistants? - BAJR Host - 2nd July 2008
Uo1 states...
"more like a list of every reason why digging cant possibly be a self employed position."
No, it is a list of reasons why people might say you are self employed, but in reality (to the Tax man) are not...
Protects both employers and employees (and self employed)
I have been self employed to one degree for nearly 15 years ... sometimes with an employed position as well.
60 quid in the and mate.. no questions, does not cut it with a Tax man...
150, 200 quid, that might help to cover all the other things you need... being self employed is not as bad as you think... but it does require effort, book keeping, and a hard look at benefits. I find it suits me... but remember, when I have a holiday... nobody pays, when I am off sick.. nobody pays... When I need tools... I have to supply them... each car journey, each train, every piece of workware... etc... my insurance (Towergate) my NI contributions... in fact... I have a Tax bill coming in.. so I have to have budgeted...
If anybody knows of companies that use the ... you are self employed wheeze... let me know... they are putting themselves and the person at risk from hefty tax trouble.
"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu
Self employed site assistants? - RedEarth - 2nd July 2008
I have heard of one fairly shocking example of a University based unit that regularly took on new graduates and then treated all of its staff below manager as self employed. Of course, those fresh out of Uni didn't have any idea what this meant, until the taxman came knocking!
This was a few years ago and something of a second-hand story, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that it still went on.
On the other hand, I have come across several people who chose to be self employed and they have the freedom to move around wherever they want as long as there is demand, and they don't might filling out forms. Being effectively forced to be self employed is a completely different matter though.
Self employed site assistants? - trowelfodder - 2nd July 2008
Did tell them that the wages were unacceptably low and that felt that there is something seriously wrong with them expecting me to be self employed on the terms they offered.
They didnt sound to surprised by my reply. I didnt come down with the last shower but felt it important to raise this issue for the benifit of any recent graduates who may not realise the pitfalls of this type of company