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+--- Thread: Self Employed Diggers Again (/showthread.php?tid=1057)
Self Employed Diggers Again - BAJR Host - 1st August 2008
2pints it is you that is the loser in this... and... as Austin points out... you are liable .. and the Tax Office don't care if you think you are...
[quote] DO NOT accept excuses that this is how it is or everyone else wants it like this. You MUST comply with the law; as MUST the employer. The issue of being an employee is also a matter of great importance for your personal safety and financial integrity.
All employers run some form of PAYE system which they could expand to cover you; they are simply excluding you for their corporate benefit. Ultimately if your employer or prospective employer threatens to remove the offer of work you need to consider whether you value work that is paid in an illegal manner and which attempts to exclude you from insurance cover should you be injured at work (or make you personally liable should a colleague or member of the public be injured inadvertently through your actions). It?s not worth it. Insist on staying within the law; a company that cannot keep to employment [quote]
The company in question suggests you are completely covered by their insurance... you are not... you are self-employed.
You have to wonder... why do it this way... is it for your benefit? Or that they avoid insurance payments, holiday payments, National insurance payments, etc etc... ... I hear they even offer free accommodation on come sites... enough said ...?
there are jobs out there that pay the rate and higher , AND INCLUDE the benefits of employee status..
I came to a descision years ago.. I won't accept illegal contracts... its not worth the risk
2pints : You just need a good accountant. - nope... a good accountant would say .. you are being taken for a ride.
And people have done it for years.. basically without being caught... I knew a group that did it like that.. one person got caught by tax .. then the company got investigated... then everyone else got looked at.. and one poor sod... who will remain nameless, was fined over 15,000 pounds..
And remember.. 300GBP as a self employed... translates into around 120 GBP or less if you are not breaking the law... and as an accountant, you will know the tax office are not somebody to reason with.
If you know it is illegal.... and the company do...... (I have explained it to them) then I will be surprised if the tax office don't investigate quite soon...
"I don't have an archaeological imagination.."
Borekickers
Self Employed Diggers Again - BAJR Host - 1st August 2008
I have sent an email to the company to fully clarify there stance.. If I am not happy with the response (based on advice from a tax advisor) then I will be remiving them from BAJR contractor list, and refusing further adverts. They will also be named here.
But I hope we don't get there.
"I don't have an archaeological imagination.."
Borekickers
Self Employed Diggers Again - drpeterwardle - 1st August 2008
I am really not sure how David arrives at the figure of UKP 120 per week being the real rate of pay.
OK lets look at the costs per year.
PPE ?60
Insurance ?500
Equipment ?100
Laptop & Printer ?100 (replacing every 5 years.
Finance ?250.
I suggest that the net figure is about 13400 which below the BAJR grade 2 threshold. You pay NI if you are employed or self employed. You pay your own tax if you are employed or self employed.
As for the figures that are being suggested that people can charge realistically these will be a lot lower. Freelance historians charge ?8-10 an hour for example. In all eventualities the rate will have to be lower than the charge out rate for the main employer so say ?100 per day for a digger or 140 for a project officer I would think are the maximums that can be charged.
ANYBODY THINKING ABOUT BECOMING SELF EMPLOYED MUST BE AWARE OF THE REVENUE RULES.
I really dont think it is a good idea for somebody who has done a few DBAs to set up doing the research for them if they have any liability for the content of them.
Peter
Self Employed Diggers Again - Austin Ainsworth - 1st August 2008
Quote:quote:Originally posted by drpeterwardle
I really dont think it is a good idea for somebody who has done a few DBAs to set up doing the research for them if they have any liability for the content of them.
Peter
After re-reading my post I can see how it could have been interpreted in that way. Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. The skills acquired by writing DBAs can be used for other areas of historical/archaeological research not just for the production of more DBAs.
![[Image: skull1.gif]](http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg189/boltonsquanderer/skull1.gif)
Self Employed Diggers Again - BAJR Host - 1st August 2008
thanks peter... BUT... you omit that self employd people don't get holiday pay ... so knock out another 28 days pay... and then of course there is the liability.. after all, a self- employed person takes a finicial risk.. placing a value on a piece of work, and being required to finish it either early or later.. thus making more or less profit..
the hilidays alone knocks another ?900 off and then of course there is sickness... no work.. no pay... then there is accomodation and transport, which should be costed separately, paid for and then invoiced...
"I don't have an archaeological imagination.."
Borekickers
Self Employed Diggers Again - BAJR Host - 1st August 2008
Why do companies do this?
Companies may use allegedly self-employed field staff because of inertia; while individual archaeologists may be used to claiming to be self-employed and object to being employees. Alternatively companies may be doing this because they are attempting to avoid:
paying employers contribution on National Insurance;
carrying the administrative cost of running PAYE schemes;
having to pay staff promptly (invoices can be deferred from payment for 30 days);
allowing archaeologists to be covered by contracts of employment;
allowing archaeologists to gain employment benefits (leave; benefits; job security etc);
allowing access to pension schemes (stakeholder schemes etc);
providing insurance cover for archaeologists (employers insurance
cover employees not self-employed).
The apparent benefit to the self-employed archaeologist is the higher day rate than that which employees may receive; although the gained monies are dwarfed by the passed on hazards and liabilities. Most significant is that the company and individual, in the case of field archaeologists, are most probably acting in breach of Inland Revenue regulations.
Company liabilities
Any company using self-employed field staff (who are not truly self-employed) are carrying a serious tax and National Insurance liability should they be investigated by the Inland Revenue and found out - if they are knowingly using self-employed field staff (who are not truly self-employed) they are carrying out a fraud.
In addition they are in danger of being taken to industrial tribunal by former or current ?self-employed? staff who could reasonably claim that they are in fact employees and entitled to the consequent benefits. This is most likely to be tested in the event of accidents or injuries where Employers Liability insurance would not cover the supposed self-employed staff and the injured individual would have to test their effective employment status through a tribunal to gain access to the protection of the company insurance provision.
Self-employed liabilities
By being registered as self-employed the individual takes on board the responsibility for tax and national insurance payments, record keeping and financial management. Financial management should include laying monies aside for payments and coping with cashflow problems while waiting for invoices to be met and when not working (inc. holidays).
The self-employed are also responsible for supplying themselves all
equipment and paying for adequate insurance provision for them to work (both in case of them injuring themselves or causing injury to others).
"I don't have an archaeological imagination.."
Borekickers
Self Employed Diggers Again - mercenary - 1st August 2008
Dr Pete wrote
Quote:quote:?100 per day for a digger or 140 for a project officer I would think are the maximums that can be charged.
I can assure you that at present the freelancers on my current project are charging ?130 to ?160 per day (?650-?800/week). I also know others who are charging even more.
Self Employed Diggers Again - BAJR Host - 1st August 2008
thats about right for my reckoning too
"I don't have an archaeological imagination.."
Borekickers
Self Employed Diggers Again - Austin Ainsworth - 1st August 2008
Quote:quote:Originally posted by mercenary
Dr Pete wroteQuote:quote:?100 per day for a digger or 140 for a project officer I would think are the maximums that can be charged.
I can assure you that at present the freelancers on my current project are charging ?130 to ?160 per day (?650-?800/week). I also know others who are charging even more.
Just to back that up a group went out to St. Helena last week and the freelancers on that are on 150 GBP per day.
Self Employed Diggers Again - drpeterwardle - 2nd August 2008
In my calculations I took holidays into account and the fact there is money to outlay for expenses etc.
The rates I suggest are based upon current UK charge out rates for the various grades in the UK. In some cases people may be paid more - good luck to them. With freelance work there will be more variations in rates. The point I was making is do not expect to be paid huge amounts of money. This is particularly so in the current market conditions.
There is also the point that the work is less likely to be continuous than employment - there may well be gaps between contracts (this is when the self employed take holidays).
The point about liabilities and risk is a real one although I am not sure how this comes into play very much in the type of work we are talking about.
There is the risk that a job may take longer or be finished quicker. Oh yes if a fixed price is being given rather than a day rate. This does mean the efficient and hard working will get paid more.
I would note that there is nothing intrinsically wrong is being self employed or working freelance just there is a very different dynamic. It suits some people (like myself) burt above all else you have to know what you are doing in terms of finance, estimating and contracts.
Peter Wardle