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The Plight of UK Archaeology 2009 - Oxbeast - 12th March 2009
Quote:quote:quote:
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Originally posted by Plautus
The trouble with archaeology, is that it is run by people who have a vested interest in the status quo. Company directors make a lot by paying archaeologists as a Labourers rate and charging clients at a proffesionals rate for their services.
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If you have any evidence that the ratio of charge-out rates to pay rates is different in archaeology to other areas of the construction industry I'm sure we'd all be pleased to hear it.
Not sure about aother areas of the construction industry, but I've certainly heard of it happening in archaeology (before the credit crunch). Either you can do it on an ad hoc basis, charging out a couple of supervisors as POs, or on a wholesale basis, charging everyone out at a step above their pay grade. Its a bit of a risky strategy: profitable, but you wouldn't want the client to find out about it...
The Plight of UK Archaeology 2009 - RedEarth - 12th March 2009
Quote:quote:Originally posted by Plautus
Company directors make a lot by paying archaeologists as a Labourers rate and charging clients at a proffesionals rate for their services.
Company directors make a lot! I wish! Some of us do what we can to make sure our staff get a reasonable wage and working conditions, taking any hit to our own wages as a result when we are undercut by people less concerned with such things.
What I find particularly bad are some fairly shocking working conditions, often expected at some of the largest organisations, that still exist - rampant unpaid overtime, lack of facilities on site, people kept at the same level for years on end, people expected to do work above their position for a temporary increase in pay or nothing at all. All the recent talk about BAJR Fed is a positive move because as you mention 'the upper ranks of the IFA are populated by company owners' - how many RAOs can be accused of bad working practices and pretty poor wages (in view of the actual amount of time people spend at work for example)?
On the other hand, I've certainly come across plenty of people in archaeology who are, to be brutally honest, pretty poor at their job at best and totally useless and disinterested to the point that you wonder why they bother. Perhaps the recent culling will be beneficial in as much as it will get rid of some of the worst people and leave the best! Somehow I doubt it though - as prices are forced to drop to win work, standards are almost certainly going to slip.
The Plight of UK Archaeology 2009 - drpeterwardle - 12th March 2009
Unfortunately I dont have time to respond to this in detail. Painters and decorators at ?15 per hour sounds like a sub contracting rate. Painting and decorating is a skilled or semi skilled job.
In my paper at the first BAJR conference I compared the charge out rates and pay for a supervisor and a banksman and yes the banksman got paid a much higher ratio than the archaeologist.
As for the notion that company owners get paid huge amounts, all IFA members are bosses with a vested interest or that developers will pay anything. Get real.
The current situation is not good and is not good from top to bottom. What everbody seems to forget is that if a company goes bankrupt the owner could loose everything including their house.
Peter
The Plight of UK Archaeology 2009 - chiz - 12th March 2009
Quote:quote:Originally posted by Plautus
...but as the upper ranks of the IFA are populated by company owners I think little will change.
why don't you join and stand for Council then? Seriously.
I personally know three people on the iFA council , and they certainly aren't company owners, far from it, and the reason two of them put their names forward was specifically to get site staff views heard as part of the Diggers Forum initiative. There are unit heads on IFA council, about five out of 21 it looks like to me, but there are a lot of others who have very different priorities. Put your name forward and help us outnumber the bosses.
The Plight of UK Archaeology 2009 - Plautus - 12th March 2009
I seem to have stirred up something of a hornets nest here.
But really all I was trying to say was that as some of the larger units pay very little to their staff and bid very low for work, often going way over the original budget for work (and overcharging for work and staff). This makes very difficult for other smaller units to compete and they also therefore also have to offer very low wages for staff.
If basic wage levels are going to change it has to change across the profession, which is hopefully where the IFA should come in. However despite making the right noises over the last few years, they don't seem to have achieved much or to have even tried particuly hard.
Many diggers I've talked to believe that owners at MIFA level seem to have a huge say in the direction of the IFA, and that the needs of the AIFAs and PIFAs play second fiddle. This is also a reason that many low level archaeologist of my acquaintance do not join the IFA as they cannot see any advantage to themselves. I am in fact an IFA member, but I have great difficulty telling other young archaeologist why they should be.
The Plight of UK Archaeology 2009 - RedEarth - 12th March 2009
Quote:quote:Originally posted by bob
Quote:quote:Originally posted by Plautus
...but as the upper ranks of the IFA are populated by company owners I think little will change.
why don't you join and stand for Council then? Seriously.
I personally know three people on the iFA council , and they certainly aren't company owners, far from it, and the reason two of them put their names forward was specifically to get site staff views heard as part of the Diggers Forum initiative. There are unit heads on IFA council, about five out of 21 it looks like to me, but there are a lot of others who have very different priorities. Put your name forward and help us outnumber the bosses.
I would absolutely love to be on the IFA council but the pressures of actually attempting to earn a living and have a life outside of work make it impossible, especially now. I'm sure many people have pointed out before how practically difficult it would be for people to be on the council and actually attend meetings, especially if they are out in the field. Not to mention the cost of attending meetings. I can't even afford to go to the annual conference. Any advice?
The Plight of UK Archaeology 2009 - chiz - 12th March 2009
Quote:quote:Originally posted by RedEarth
I would absolutely love to be on the IFA council but the pressures of actually attempting to earn a living and have a life outside of work make it impossible, especially now. I'm sure many people have pointed out before how practically difficult it would be for people to be on the council and actually attend meetings, especially if they are out in the field. Not to mention the cost of attending meetings. I can't even afford to go to the annual conference. Any advice?
I agree, I'd be up for it as well, except as a freelancer I am one of those nasty MIFA owners... I can't afford the conference either, but was asked about doing a paper there, if I did would I have to pay to speak?!
Units I know give unfunded time to attend IFA meetings and I assume the IFA pays train fares. Yes its disruptive if you are running a site, but I imagine the meetings are flagged up well in advance. I'll ask one of my mates how much time it takes over the year.
It is a serious point though, and one that some people have been banging on about for years, get a voice, get on the council, and influence things.
The Plight of UK Archaeology 2009 - Plautus - 12th March 2009
Quote:quote:except as a freelancer I am one of those nasty MIFA owners
touche Bob.
Perhaps my as I've always worked for fairly large companies my experience is not representative. I'll shut up now as I seem to be becoming some sort of marxist anti MIFA mentalist, which I'm not....really.
The Plight of UK Archaeology 2009 - chiz - 12th March 2009
Quote:quote:Originally posted by Plautus
Many diggers I've talked to believe that owners at MIFA level seem to have a huge say in the direction of the IFA, and that the needs of the AIFAs and PIFAs play second fiddle. This is also a reason that many low level archaeologist of my acquaintance do not join the IFA as they cannot see any advantage to themselves. I am in fact an IFA member, but I have great difficulty telling other young archaeologist why they should be.
Unfortunately just as the iFA identified a 13-53% (or whatever the actual figure is) shortfall in comparative wages, along came the recession. Lets just be thankful we're not in hyper inflation yet...the IFA is committed to getting the wages up, after the recession ends. I hope that is soon. They have committed to it, and won't find it easy to get out of, especially if people keep up the pressure.
If the diggers/processors and supervisors don't join the iFA, how can they be heard? Well they can join Digger's Forum for a fiver a year and get a voice in negotiations. But if enough site staff join the IFA, and elect their own to council....there are more of us than them.
PS another incentive to join...
I've just seen you now get 15% off at Cotswolds Outdoors on production of a IFA membership card, that's a pretty good deal and if you are into camping etc could save you a lot of cash if you need a new sleeping bag/goretex/tent. I wonder if Cotswold Outdoors is connected to the well-known archaeological unit of a similar name???
The Plight of UK Archaeology 2009 - Kathryn Whittington - 12th March 2009
Quote:quote:Originally posted by RedEarth
I'm sure many people have pointed out before how practically difficult it would be for people to be on the council and actually attend meetings
Members of IfA Council and IfA committees can claim travel expenses for meetings back from IfA, though we don't pay for time spent at meetings.
Quote:quote:Originally posted by bob
I can't afford the conference either, but was asked about doing a paper there, if I did would I have to pay to speak?!
Speakers at IfA Conference do not have to pay to attend the day of the conference their paper is being given on.