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+--- Thread: value (/showthread.php?tid=1859)
value - sniper - 16th April 2005
but at the moment I stand no chance of getting any freelance work at all, unless I charge myself out at stupidly low rates, so i will stay at a unit for a while and get stupidly low rates, with a slightly better chance of still having a job next week...
++ i spend my days rummaging around in dead people ++
value - troll - 19th April 2005
Sniper/Vulpes- Understood.Does`nt this all piss you off? I get the feeling that "the way things are" is acceptable? My point is two-fold; first, the IFA do not have the right to determine the minimum wage for an archaeologist and anyway, based on their figures, our average wage is around ?20K so no need to heed the reccommendations of APPAG and two; a high "profile" is not the same as "value". Our high profile is the result of nothing more than entertainment archaeology-is that all archaeology has to offer? Recreating entire cultures from the tiniest pot sherds and providing employment for spoilt (and failed) comedians?
value - deepdigger - 19th April 2005
Well said Troll. Why should we keep that little tosser baldrick in a job when we cant guarentee our own. or are we just here for the publics titilation?
i suspect that i'm only "working" in archaeology to amuse my boss.
deep
value - vulpes - 19th April 2005
Even if what you say about our average wage level is true. And I find 20K quite a reasonable estimate considering the evidence and my limited understanding of statistics! It is still 5K lower than the national average wage. Troll it seems to me that you are being shocked about a fact which demonstrates that its not just diggers who are underpaid its the supervisors, project officers and managers too!!!! Trust me once you've reached the average for archaeology, you'll then start wondering why you're not average for the UK, or (the holy grail) average for a university graduate.
value - troll - 19th April 2005
Vulpes-once again-agreed. A couple of points...
The IFA came up with this figure purely because thats waht they came up with after one of their surveys. Unfortunately, those of us who have seen their surveys before did`nt reply for a number of reasons.As a consequence, the survey largely represents the people who are not field archaeologists. In fact, the survey mirrors the responses of archaeological managers. A close look will reveal that on average, most field archaeologists earn around 12-13K pa. I can earn more than that cleaning toilets. Who do the IFA think they are? They are solely responsible for this farce to ensure continuity of their own members golf-club membership. As an aside-I earnt more than the Prime Minister at one point so I know the score. I chose to be a field archaeologist-I did`nt chose the IFA to devalue me or, what I do.
value - BAJR Host - 19th April 2005
So here is a tricky question for you... but an honest answer is appreciated... think about it... drink about it.. even smoke on it... ponder and slurp cold coffee with added soil with your back resting on a portacabin... discuss and argue... but here you go..
These are the minimum levels that are presently held on BAJR (including the 2.95%wage rise that I added in April) and what would you see as a real wage .. attaced to the relevant responsibility grade. ps... I am wondering about who to implement the tricky sums involved in the payment due to a self employed or an employed archaeologist... where one might make 300 a week while another makes ?260, but at the end of teh day, when tax NI and pension/holiday/sickness etc is taken into account, then it works out teh same. Any help please email me (I ainn't to good on accounting!)
Level 1: ie TRAINEE ::
?10,872 -?12,642 (min ?209.07 per week)
No previous experience required, you will be supervised and trained though you will be expected to carry out tasks under supervision. Suitable for students, etc ::
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Level 2: ie SITE ASSISTANT 1 / TECHNICIAN 1 ::
?13,458 -?14,106 (min ?258.80 per week)
Basic knowledge of work required, should be able to carry out work with instruction from Supervisor. Usually the person has up to 3 years experience in chosen field. ::
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Level 3: ie SITE ASSISTANT 2/ TECHNICIAN 2 ::
?14,106-?15,675 (min ?263.48 per week)
Experienced in most aspects of the work, though will receive supervision and further instruction from higher levels. Usually the person has over 3 years experience in chosen field. ::
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Level 4: ie SUPERVISOR ::
?15,675 -?17,922 (min ?301.44 per week)
Expected to be competent in chosen field and able to instruct others in the basics as well as take responsibility at a low level. Will supervise others to required tasks, but will receive instructions from higher level. ::
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Level 5: ie PROJECT OFFICER / SPECIALIST 1 ::
?17,922-?20,295 (min ?344.65 per week)
Expected to be proficient in chosen field and be able to act independently on a single project, with responsibility for the daily running though receiving strategy instruction from higher levels ::
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Level 6: ie PROJECT MANAGER / SPECIALIST 2 ::
?20,295 -?27,411 (min ?390.28 per week)
Expected to be an experienced and proficient practitioner in chosen field with ability to make independent decisions, run several projects simultaneously, deal with budgets and leading teams through projects to completion. Example would be an Assistant Curator, Project Manager, Lecturer etc. ::
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Level 7: ie Unit DIRECTOR / PROFESSOR / HIGH LEVEL SPECIALIST ::
G7 = min. ?27,411 +
Top of the ladder. Responsibilities for entire Units, Departments, Organisations. Must be able to cary out all aspects of chosen field, lead with confidence and have a standing within Heritage Community. This is a long term commitment. ::
Yeah I know they are still piss poor... but what do you see as a FAIR wage}
oh... and before you ask... I pay... 300 pw for diggers rising to 325 if they are any good. and 350 for supervisors.. rising to 375 if they are any good.
value - vulpes - 20th April 2005
Hmmm... This thread seems to be in danger of becoming an archaeological version of the 4 yorkshiremen sketch. Who do the IFA think they are? Well I've no idea, but if they and their membership are unrepresentative the best way to change this would be to join and get elected to the council.
Abstaining from a survey because of some (unspecified) critical stance, and then criticising that survey for being unrepresentative because it doesn't include you and other similarly principled individuals is bizarre, nonsensical and gave me a good chuckle. Thanks.
Also, I have issues with your definition of 'field archaeologist'. You seem to imply that once one ceases being a site assistant (or supervisor), to become a project officer, manager etc. You stop being a 'Field Archaeologist', and (I suppose) become one of them (the enemy?). Is this perhaps because to qualify as a field archaeologist one has to spend all one's time in fields, green, brown etc? And where does this leave specialists like our friend Sniper? Do you know I almost feel a twinge of guilt for not having dirty knees today.... Although I did on Monday. Answers on a postcard etc....
PS on a related note - the unrepresentative, management biased membership of the IFA were asked if they wanted to rename said body a few years ago, losing the 'field'. The outright failure of this motion surely implies that managers etc. are 'field' archaeologists, or at least they think they are.
I've been thrown out of better places.....
value - disheartened - 20th April 2005
hmm hmm hmm. well, at least some people are starting to talk about doing something about the conditions we are stuck with, so congrats and thank you.
Value of an individual archaeologist, that's a tricky one though. i've been working in archeology for over 3 years now, i've been a field archaeologist and an office-based one, worked on research and commercial projects, managed a post-ex department, numbered thousands and thousands and thousands of finds, digitised plan after plan, written reports, sat in countless soggy holes, set up site grids, presented my research at European level, and so on and so forth. Varied experience i think anyone would agree. so how does that relate to somebody else who has just spent 3 years digging medieval and post-medieval archaeology? And i don't mean "just" as a derogatory term but once you get to a certain level of digging ability it's tough to move up and learn anything new, whereas I've been lucky enough to move out and do lots of different things. I'm now being paid at a Level 5 rate (lucky me!) but i give myself a personal rating of a level 4...
value - BAJR Host - 20th April 2005
Quick answer to the which grade question disheartened.. and yes it is good to do something positive - candle in the dark and all that!
The grade is dependant on the responsibility you are personally capable of or willing to take on for that particular job... so if you are digging a site and you are employed as a Digger...then it is the job you are doing or want to do that you are paid for... being able to draw fab pot illustrations does not matter to the responsibility of the job you are being paid for.
Now if while working as a digger you are also asked to draw the pottery - then you should be receiving more money as you are now being not only a level 3 digger but also an illustrator. Complicated! Not half.... that is why I feel the need to formalise this grading... and that shouuld be done in conjunction with the IFA IMHO... even if just to make sure that we do not end up with two (or three or four) separate graded pay/responsibility levels.
A system of categorising the different job types (done by the IFA already) and then linking each grade to each job type.. so that an illustrator definition could include a range from Grades 2-6 and the define what is expected from each of these levels.
I am starting to confuse myself ... bugger[xx(]
value - vulpes - 20th April 2005
Troll. Some stats, as you seem so fond of them. IFA membership (I 'phoned up and asked) - Corporate grades: PIFA 332 (20%), AIFA 476 (29%), MIFA (51%). Clearly diggers (PIFA?) are under-represented here, but if more joined or if they could (perish the thought) team up with the AIFAs (fraternising with the enemy, perhaps?), maybe some changes could be made as they would then make up a signif. minority!!
The under-representation is also more correctly over-representation as a result of the fact that once someone has joined the IFA they tend to progress upwards in grade and don't leave. It should also be born in mind that many of the MIFAs don't correspond to your golfing management stereotype and have this grade through a combination of longevity and demonstrable responsibility and may even be freelance specialists. With the growing number of RAOs a lot of 'old lags' find themselves joining at MIFA level just to fulfill their organisations entry requirements. It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and snipe at the IFA, but criticising an organisation for faithfully representing its membership strikes me as a bit odd.
Personally speaking I'm quite happy earning what I earn (Level 5 on BAJR scale), knowing what my bosses earn (Level 6) and dreaming about earning the national average one day.... Mind you if I'd been on Tony Blair's whack, I'd probably miss it too. Hope you had the good sense to save.[8D]