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+--- Thread: Help BAJR and the PAS at Thornborough (/showthread.php?tid=192)
Help BAJR and the PAS at Thornborough - BAJR Host - 21st July 2006
As I have been invited ... I am at the 'command' of those who are a) organisaiing the rally and b) the PAS
As a good archaeologist though you will be glad to know that I am preparing template mapping for the whole area, so that depending on which fields are to be detected, I will have a relevant plan... continency... can't spell it.. but I can do it
The fields chosen will be almost on the day... as conditions, access, etc etc will be factors.
Another day another WSI?
Help BAJR and the PAS at Thornborough - BAJR Host - 21st July 2006
You are using words like Escapade..... and Salvage...air of legitimacy ....muddles through.....ad hoc....
and make a confused statement about Cambodian antiquities.
First I find you choice of words... an insult to what I and the PAS are there to do... are you suggesting I am that incompetant? are you suggesting I just muddle through? I am ad hoc... and on a jolly escapade.. As I have said.. if you want to get involved in this... come with an open mind... and talk to me off list where I will discuss in depth the concept... As it is unlikely that will be there then I doubt that you will be contacting me.
You talk about salvage... so what do you want to do... would you prefer that we keep to our little forts hurling misconceptions at each other... or take a step forward?
You may say the only answer is to ban the rally... well that is not going to happen... so now what... grumble and tut as Vulpes said...? Or get involved and work with people? Guess which way I am going.. brave (nah) just realistic... this is an opportunity... and I will report back about how it goes afterwards, rather than condemming beforehand.
This is not a place to discuss whether or not you want it to happen... this is not open to debate... it IS happening and I will see how it goes. If it is a disaster I will hold my hands up.. if it is a partial success I wil be happy .. or if it actually helps to show that hobby rallies can be useful as part of a group effort(which is what I think will happen) then I will do a little dance ...
Unlike some who go to rallies and stand on the edges of fields and hold their headds in horror... I will step into the field (nay I am invited into the field) and do a positive act.
Another day another WSI?
Help BAJR and the PAS at Thornborough - Paul Barford - 21st July 2006
Quote:quote:Originally posted by BAJR HostNo, it seems to me, from what I have been able to find out this morning by contacting the PAS and CBA (Yorkshire Museums has not replied yet) after reading your announcement here, that this response is being put together in a very ad hoc manner. I had assumed from what you wrote earlier this was some kind of planned community archaeology project and the term "rally" was a slip of the pen/typing finger. Now I find it really IS an artefact hunting rally held in a very unsuitable location to which a response is only now being put together.
You are using words like Escapade..... and Salvage...air of legitimacy ....muddles through.....ad hoc.... and make a confused statement about Cambodian antiquities. First I find you choice of words... an insult to what I and the PAS are there to do... are you suggesting I am that incompetant? are you suggesting I just muddle through? I am ad hoc...
The PAS is not "there" just so that already overworked FLOs can work weekends too and service rallies. Each metal detecting participant at this rally is paying 45 quid for the pleasure and yet if we want archaeologists to come along and record the archaeological evidence that is being removed by them from this site, they have to do it for free pay their own expenses and most likely live in a tent. That is what I meant. As for "salvage", that is exactly what it is, archaeological evidence is being removed, and we cannot stop it, so all we can do is to go along as unpaid volunteers and salvage what we can while we can. As in "salvage excavations", "salvage recording". Except as mitigation of redevelopment, "salvage" is something we try to avoid doing these days. That is what I mean by an ad hoc response. Why not find a way of avoiding a recurring "salvage" situation in cases like this? This is not the first detecting rally ever to be held in Britain, and each time, the same problems crop up. Perhaps its time to resolve them in a more satisfactory manner. That's not "insulting" David, its asking a perfectly valid question about British ARM policy in response to a concrete and recurring situation.
The word "escapade" in my text above refers to the metal detectorists who want to come along to the "Stonehenge of the North" and take a little piece of the past from it home. If you and your BAJR colleagues ask them why they go to rallies you will learn I am sure that they are not doing it to gain or generate archaeological knowledge about one of the North's premier prehistoric sites, they are coming for entertainment and socialising and if they get a relic or two as a souvenir so much the better.
So what's the archaeological difference between archaeologists working with artefact hunters in Cambodia and Yorkshire? Where is what I presented for discussion a "confused statement"? A whole lot of collectors in the States will tell you that their collections of antiquities from Asia (for example) generate and "safeguard" archaeological information from damage. Just like metal detecorists in the UK say they are doing for British finds. In reality, they are part of the same phenomenon. It seems to me "confusing" the issue trying to pretend they are not.
Quote:quote: and I will report back about how it goes afterwards, rather than condemming beforehandGood-oh. I for one look forward to seeing that. Though let's not be "happy" with a [u]partial</u> success. The needless erosion of the archaeology of this part of the Thornborough complex (by the removal of who knows how many artefacts from the artefact scatters forming the sole evidence of the ritual landscape around them) deserves more of an effective archaeological and ARM response than that.
You did not address the point I made about adequate funding of the state's response to artefact hunting (PAS) and people volunteering to work for nothing.
Paul Barford
Help BAJR and the PAS at Thornborough - BAJR Host - 21st July 2006
though neither did you adress the question of what you would do
Another day another WSI?
Help BAJR and the PAS at Thornborough - Steve-B - 21st July 2006
He is already doing what he would do.... online criticising...
http://www.detector-distribution.co.uk
Help BAJR and the PAS at Thornborough - Elgin - 21st July 2006
Quote:quote:Originally posted by BAJR HostWell I will.
though neither did you adress the question of what you would do
PAS freely admit their presence doesn't result in all the finds being reported. Sad but true, and particularly regrettable when scatters are involved. I lack confidence that your presence and that of other BAJR members will add to the numbers reported beyond what will be reported due to PAS's presence. Bear in mind PAS are there, despite being not fans of rallies, ex officio despite their misgivings (and I'm sure they will be acutely embarrassed to have to be at this one).
Please also bear in mind that the detectorist attendees are a self-selected set of those who think there's nothing wrong with this venue.
Many detectorists share my view that there are some rallies that just shouldn't be held. Those, of course, won't be there.
The upside of your presence is therefore very uncertain. The downside isn't - those who organised it will be able to say its archaeologically blessed. If the right fields are open (1000 acres are said to be available - how will you organise people spread across those?) will we see an image of you and BAJR members actually using metal detectors right next to the henge? What will that say?
So, what would I do if i were you? I'd re-think it and not attend. There are so many rallies you could have chosen to show co-operation between detectorists and archaeologists, why pick on THIS one to lend your professional support to, the one that's the least appropriate and most offensive to the maximum number of people. I have no doubt the detectorists who chose this venue knew full well they were making the rudest gesture they could to archaeologists and conservationists in general - why do it otherwise? Most land in this country isn't, as EH's committee members recently described Thornborough's surroundings - "of World Heritage class, in the top league of prehistoric landscapes"? Get thee all hence.
Help BAJR and the PAS at Thornborough - Paul Barford - 21st July 2006
Quote:quote:Originally posted by BAJR Hostwell, actually I dont feel any compunction to do anything to help artefact hunters build up their collections, especially not with potential archaeological evidence taken from just outside the scheduled area at Thornborough Henges. True to my values, I would boycott it, because being there lends this event a legitimacy that a rally held here of all places certainly does not deserve.
though neither did you adress the question of what you would do
Paul Barford
[Edit: Ah, Nigel beat me to it !]
Help BAJR and the PAS at Thornborough - BAJR Host - 21st July 2006
So your solution is do nothing then... top - ho... masterful...
:face-approve:
Another day another WSI?
Help BAJR and the PAS at Thornborough - vulpes - 21st July 2006
Why is it that anything involving metal detectorists automatically becomes controversial? As David rightly says this event is happening, nothing we can do will prevent it. It is not happening on a scheduled site and does not fall under the auspices of 'Our Portable Past', but does fall under the Code of Conduct. The removal of artefacts from a context of ploughsoil even if it is within the shadow of the all holy Thornborough henges does not constitute a criminal act, and nor should it (it may even yield important results which strengthen the importance of this landscape). Yet certain individuals are behaving like BAJR and whoever else may be involved are about to commit or aid in one. Good luck to you David, wish I could be there to help. This smacks of sophistry and the knockers are just that, none of these arguments are constructive. Boycott = ignore. Are we to act like ostriches?
Help BAJR and the PAS at Thornborough - Paul Barford - 21st July 2006
Well, I cannot agree that it is "acting like an ostrich" if somebody has particular views that incline them to boycott something they disagree with on principle. If I dont want to go and watch artefact hunting taking place where i dont think artefact hunting should be taking place, why should you criticise me for it? Would you have me go big game hunting and shoot my own red deer before you will allow me to say I disapprove of blood sports? What kind of an argument is that?