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+--- Thread: THE DIGGER is BACK! (/showthread.php?tid=2284)
THE DIGGER is BACK! - BAJR Host - 28th August 2009
Ere.. just gone and checked the Digger again... its got a post... wooo... there's a first post :0
I should remind people that what is on the Digger is one thing... but here there is a strict AUP. - just a heads up!
THE DIGGER is BACK! - kevin wooldridge - 28th August 2009
Red Earth - All I was trying to suggest was that if you take qualatitive factors out of the Fantasy League then all you are left with is which unit pays the most for the longest period of time and possibly gives you the biggest logo on the back of your waterproofs. I have been digging for nearly 30 years, I know a lot of archaeologists and and I know that for many professionals archaeology is about more than just those factors.
Just think the Fantasy league should reflect that fact.....
Otherwise I agree with you - I think.
THE DIGGER is BACK! - RedEarth - 28th August 2009
has everyone gone mental!
Perhaps on David's suggestion people on the same site should get different rates - 'you've got a villa at this end of the site so it's 10% off your pay packet...'
I fully appreciate that it is nice to work on interesting and exciting sites, of course it is, but it's a lot nicer to have reasonable pay and conditions, PPE supplied, not be expected to work 12 hours a day for 8 hours pay etc. All the lovely archaeology in the world is only going to keep that out of the back of your mind for a few years at best. Besides, some areas do have far 'worse' archaeology, that's just the nature of the thing, but it is still providing the same sort of information. When did we all become treasure hunters!
All I'm saying is that you can't judge a unit on the quality of the archaeology, might as well base it on how many letter Bs there are in the company name, or whether there's anyone called Terry working there... I fear we have become used to saying 'yeah the pay's crap, but I got to find some treasure last week', rather than 'is the pay crap because I might find some treasure one day?' We don't get to take it home after all.
THE DIGGER is BACK! - RedEarth - 28th August 2009
Oh, and back to the original topic, having read the first post on the Digger thank God it's back!
THE DIGGER is BACK! - chiz - 28th August 2009
well they've certainly kicked off with a bang. I hope that the information is reliable (the basic facts of the day rate are still on the web, google it) and that the unit in question, and maybe the IFA were asked to comment. It is very important to get the facts straight.
As a freelancer myself, and knowing a lot of others, I'd heard of the adverts in question and wondered about the pay, and legality. Anyone tempted to work for this little should seriously look at how much it will actually mean in your pocket. And you'll definitely need insurance, and that is normally only available for a 12 month period. I can unfortunately see the attraction to students seeking experience (although the advert wants 6 months experience) and students don't usually pay tax (but need to pay NI I believe?).
Other 'units' taking on self-employed diggers pay at least ?100 a day, which is still probably too low to meet IFA minima over the year after real expenses if you are really self-employed.
To make it clear, ?67.50 per day, over a 230 day working year, is only ?15,525 a year. That is working every single weekday bar bank holidays and 20 days holiday and a nominal 3 days sick. From this turnover must be paid TAX, NI ( alot more than employees NI subs), Insurance, tools and clothing, travel expenses, accomodation expenses, accountant, professional memberships, bank charges....you've also got to pay for your own holiday (dropping your hourly rate) as that isn't paid, and if you get sick, you get nothing without insurance (which costs more). And if it rains, or the site can't be worked, you may be lucky and get a half days payment, but you may be told to go home for the week.
A good deal?
THE DIGGER is BACK! - Windbag - 28th August 2009
I remember working on an archaeological site where the site director was a full-time employee of the unit and the rest of us were self-employed diggers. One day the director couldn't come into work due to a stomach bug. The day's work was cancelled, we lost a day's pay but the site director got sick pay. It really brought home to me the inequality of the system! :face-huh:
THE DIGGER is BACK! - chiz - 28th August 2009
yep, there's even less security than your standard digger job. The chances of actually working every day to make that ?15525 is highly unlikely to say the least!
The Digger example gives 'quality accomodation' (their description, no idea what it is like), and that should be a taxable benefit too I believe, based on say ?30 a night B&B, thats tax to pay on ?120 (4 nights).
There are good points to freelance work, its not all bad. But at a decent and sustainable day rate, which this isn't. And you need to be *really* self-employed. Working for the same unit for six months where they provide accom (at no charge? -tax on this?) and provide tools and tell you what to dig probably won't cut the mustard.
The IFA worked out a day rate for specialists based on MIFA level minima ( a few years ago) as being at least ?200 a day to give an idea of a proper rate. They had calculated *all* the costs including time for CPD, memberships and time off sick etc etc.
THE DIGGER is BACK! - drpeterwardle - 28th August 2009
lets get the facts right the rate the company is paying is ?67.50 to ?85 a day depending on experience which is a turnover of 15.5k or 19.5k out of which some things have to be paid like NI and some tools and similar which will cost say 2k per year. At the upper end of this scale is about BAJR rates at the bottom it is below.
Chiz said "From this turnover must be paid TAX" Everybody pays tax on their earnings employed or self employed. Tax is not a simple and I think if people are guenuinely self employed only the profit on accommodation provided would be taxable for example. Advice on tax in this situation should be sought from a properly qualified person.
I dont understand what Chiz says wheny they state "you've also got to pay for your own holiday" especially when they deducts loss of pay for holidays in the turn over figures.
Peter
THE DIGGER is BACK! - chiz - 28th August 2009
Sorry Peter, but you are appear to be wrong on at least one point.
BAJR rates are for employees, not self-employed. David has several times had to consider whether potential advertisers of self-employed positions meet his rates. He has said no to the unit in question, but agreed to advertise another unit at ?100 a day+. Anyway I was talking about IFA rates. But no, the turnover is not the same as the BAJR rate and to suggest that it is is really rather naive or disingenuous.
Yes everyone pays tax, yes it is not simple, yes consult a properly qualified person (another cost). When taking a quote and cutting it short it is usual to place '...' before or after as appropriate to indicate it is an extract, otherwise you are in danger of taking things out of context and misrepresenting me. The article in The Digger talks about someone saying they thought they'd get away without paying tax, I was addressing this point and making a list of the various costs, some common to employees, some unique to self-employed, some just different levels. The overall point I was making is that there are a wide range of extra costs to self-employment, and tax may be one of those. Tax rules are slightly different for self-employed, and you may have to pay tax in advance. You may also have to pay tax on accomodation, which can add up. People have been caught on this by HMRC. You pay more NI as a self-emplyed person, and i left out the fact that you are the only person paying into your pension pot. The IFA gives a value of ?903.21pa on the pension contributions alone for PIFA.
http://www.archaeologists.net/modules/icontent/index.php?page=206
I think you would be doing well to cover all business costs and taxes and insurance etc inside of ?2Kpa, of course some costs become business costs when self-employed and are tax deductable, it is swings and roundabouts, but there are many additional and unforeseen costs to bear. If you run your self-employed business as a proper business then I think costs will be very much over the ?2K you give. I backed this assertion up with the reference I made to the IFA paper (unpublished unfortunately, but why not email Kate Geary and ask for a copy) that states that a ?2005 MIFA minima requires ?200 as a dayrate.
You pay for your own holiday as you do not work those days, it affects the number of days in which to earn income. Sorry if that is not clear.
I enjoy a balance of freelance and employment at the moment, I like the flexibility and challenge, but it is certainly one way to find out what all those office bods back at unit HQ actually do for you. Anyone tempted by such adverts should get good advice from existing bona fide freelancers, and tax and/or employment professionals about the hidden costs.
THE DIGGER is BACK! - BAJR Host - 28th August 2009
Don't want to go to in depth into specifics..of this particular case, but lets look more general
However, lets look at it this way:
8 hour day = 40 hour week? (though I expect this is meant to be 37.5 hours with the lunch break.
This is labour only self employment : and so tools etc can be supplied by the employer.
However. taking the figures. for a Digger G2 to A supervisor G4
?290.28 pw to ?338.11 pw what is on offer here is :
?337.5 - ?425
lets just take a month
this makes it
?1350 (?1161.12 min BAJR rate) - ?1700 (min BAJR Rate ?1352.44
of course the holiday time (or in lieu) that you would get as an employed person of 2.333 days per month is now gone.
(subtract ?157.47 - ?198.30 )
Labour only sub-contractors is the practice that an individual contractor supplies his labour to complete a job and is paid in a lump sum. Such workers will often move from employment to this form of self-employment regularly. This is done with the acquiescence of the main contractors who thereby have less administration and do not pay secondary national insurance contributions or industrial training levies. However, such labourers cannot claim employment protection rights. Action has been taken regarding the avoidance of tax associated with this type of employment/engagement in that independent contractors are treated as though employed under sections 559-567 of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/ukpga_19880001_en_46#pt13-ch4-l1g559 Therefore, payments made by a main contractor to a sub-contractor must have tax deducted at source, except where the sub-contractor has obtained a certificate that he is operating a business covered by adequate insurance and that he has complied with tax requirements over a three year period. The contractor is responsible for Class 1 national insurance contributions
So there is an additional NI Class2 paid by the self employed digger...
There is also no sick pay nor is there any of the other employment protections.
You could of course move from labour only job to labour only job... however .... if you do any real self employed work.. you better have insurance.... (see the recent guide online)
by the time you take all this into consideration.. and by the way.. according to the recent ruling by the Inland Revenue started by the Wrexham branch:
Accommodation is a taxable for archaeology, and must be declared as such, unless it can be shown that you are normally working for a company and this is away from home, otherwise this is seen as your main place of work, and therefore any provision of accommodation is subject to tax.
That 'fat fee' is not looking so fat any more.
Of course it is up to the individual to decide whether they will work for ?67.5 a day.. completely up to them.
but start making the deductions...for a month ( I agree we all have to pay tax.. so lets not confuse things, just teh extra deductions)
?1350 - ?157 (no holiday pay) - ?10.40 (Class2 NI) ?1182.60 which gives you an extra 21.60 in your hand every month (of course you have no sickness rights.. so take just 1/2 a day off, and you are now down over a tenner!
And you better be paying tax as well.. well in fact, it better be deducted at source! oh and insurance when you are not a labour only?
What's my self employed rate... as a digger.. I would not go out for less than 100 quid a day.. simple... and the more I am expected to do, the more I charge... and I would expect a contract that reflected that.