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+--- Thread: Prices Guides and Quotes (/showthread.php?tid=312)
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Prices Guides and Quotes - Sniffer - 4th November 2006
I don't price the work and submit tenders myself - thank goodness - but as an irrelevant party looking in, I do wonder if there's a certain 'cart before horse' desire involved here.
The specifiying brief from whatever source (direct client or via consultant) needs to be of a set standard that contractors can work to in order for any fixed price guidelines to have any meaning.
It's with that in mind that I wonder (and everyone thinks geophys is a possibility) what specific tasks could be of a fixed rate.
Looking at our charge sheets (we get a detailed breakdown of operative hours), some of the tasks we routinely do like backfill scanning and such vary little in time per cubic metre and such like.
Personally, I think it's too complicated if you step beyond specifying equipment charges and basic labour charges. You can't price things per hour when you've no idea how many hours are involved; it just makes a nonsense of a quotation.
One of the simplest tender forms I've seen broke the work down into stages and costs. Tenderes can detail how much of their price goes towards office overheads, insurance of various sorts, support staff, accommodation and then plant hire, non-professional labour charges and stuff.
It's ok for the Consultant or Client because at least they can compare like answers to like and see where the differences are, and better for the contractor because they can continue to make a reasonable guess at costs (and ours carry a rider of up to +10% if it's a quotation rather than a tender) which is what they're in business to do - it's the risk they take and the sting in the tail of competitive tendering.
So I think it's up to the Client/Consultant to specify their wants consistently and they'll get a breakdown consistently.
Where the good Doctor lists what he reckons the needs of contractors are to quote, I would say he's spot on (with my business hat on). Sadly, the impression I've had from the office in the last two years is that we've often had to find that information out for ourselves on larger projects because the data supplied is 'optimistic'. They also tell me that they break it down themselves differently.
They take (on larger works) the specified Where, When and What.. then rely on our own survey/research (which costs money!) to tell us if, how, and how much. If this approach isn't used, then we end up in the situation eventually where Consultants will be specifying a price for the work 'take it or leave it'. That's unhealthy. The prices will get driven down and the pressure will again be on contractors to do the work for nearly no profit and the attendant internal cutbacks which stifle staff and business development.
End Clients aren't at risk from being overcharged by everyone under competitive tendering - it's designed to avoid that. Guideline prices for work are a risk to contractors though. They're already taking enough risk in having to put together a competitive price to win the work they live on.
Prices Guides and Quotes - drpeterwardle - 4th November 2006
Again sniffer you are right. The assumption that is being made in most of these discussions is that we are taliking about fixed priced all eventuality tender competition rather than the more normal contracts.
Peter
Prices Guides and Quotes - voice of reason - 4th November 2006
Just hold on a mo. What 'more normal contracts', Peter? The overwhelming majority of the projects we are asked to price where in competition, and especially by consultants, are fixed price lump sums. I have been told explicitly by two separate consultancy firms that any ranges given are generally ignored and the upper price used as main basis of comparison when presenting to client.
And as for the contractors being too precious about small jobs - as the cash sum margins are so small down there, why shouldn't the contractor actually care about their business interests and try to minmise the possibility of loss especially if a small company?
Prices Guides and Quotes - 1man1desk - 6th November 2006
Speaking as a consultant, our company rarely if ever issues tenders asking for fixed, lump-sum prices. We structure things in a way (see my previous posts) that allows comparison of tenders on a level playing field, eliminates comparison on the basis of the different guesses made by contractors about the amount of archaeology present, and covers the un-estimatable items (so far as possible) using provisional sums or provisional quantities.
That approach requires quite a bit of additional hard thinking when writing the spec, but it does largely address the risks to both contractor and client.
Personally, I think that fixed prices are silly for most archaeological purposes.
1man1desk
to let, fully furnished
Prices Guides and Quotes - gumbo - 6th November 2006
Hi Emjem, thanks for the 'photo of the board by the way' HA HA HA
Did you get your assessment done by BTW?
G X
Prices Guides and Quotes - drpeterwardle - 10th November 2006
I would agree with vioce of reason that if a fixed price sum is being asked for giving a range is not helpful. Some developers want to transfer all the risk and hence want the price fixing. That is there perogative.
On these occassions when I have asked for quotes I often get back costings and budgets not quotes. This makes like with like cost comparisons difficult and in some respects it is easier to bin the submissions which have not conformed to what has been asked for.
As for the statement
"as the cash sum margins are so small down there, why shouldn't the contractor actually care about their business interests and try to minmise the possibility of loss especially if a small company"
I dont understand this - the point I was making that producing quotes for a say 1DW1PD+M evaluation (one day wonder one person for a day) is so easy it should take seconds.
It is the same for a small or large firm.
We do have the ICE conditions of contract for archaeology.
Peter