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+--- Thread: Aparthied?? - with poll (/showthread.php?tid=5223)
Aparthied?? - with poll - BAJR - 8th February 2014
Indeed. to the points above.
Quote:generic questions one should ask oneself before jumping on the bandwagon?the question is... what knowledge does "one" have to make an informed decision. And I should broaden it out to suggest, that people research the situation fully before slapping a blanket ban on something. Do I personally have a greater affinity to Arabic Levant? yes... but also know that it is fraught with nuance. having spent time with Assyrian, Bedu, a complex mix of Syrians... and even Yazedi ( now they were interesting! ) I also know many Israeli's .. and strangely the same number of nice people and nasty people exist in all of these groups.
Words are so bound with meaning and sublayers. and my worry about this particular question was the question. It was like saying Do Bears shit in the woods... Yes. to stop them shitting in the woods, I will cut down the woods.
Many of us did not agree with the war in Iraq... for example. but our state went to war (on our behalf - whether we voted Labour or not) many people around the world hate Britain for what our state did.. and does. Do you feel that you should be ostracized by others for the act of your sate? Would it make you more or less likely to feel picked on?
Serious questions... would stopping talking to Canadian Archaeologists help reverse canadian mining companies desire for deep mines on Roman Gold Mines? or is it better to work with those that do support our shared views.
So... to be clear...
Israel - is to my opinion a state that discriminates though is still bound by international laws, even if it tries to bend them ( don't we all!)
I will still remain in contact with and share research with Israeli archaeologists and Arabic ones.
As Box o Frogs says... we have to change
Aparthied?? - with poll - Boxoffrogs - 8th February 2014
Agreed, well said than man!
The one thing we have to do "is to keep on talking"....
Aparthied?? - with poll - Tool - 8th February 2014
I hate polls like that. On the surface, with a subject that rightly raises people's ire, it seems simple. But that's the problem as people above have said. It is never that simple. How do you define the state of Israel? Is it the government? Is that of one voice? Is it the people, and are they of one voice? Do they have legitimate reasons for being paranoid about security? And does that excuse what they do? Who is it that's actually 'doing' it? It's hard enough to understand the intricacies of the relationship between just two people, let alone between whole nations. And I guess that's the point. It's too easy to group people together in these pigeon-holes of usually artificial blocs of people and forget that within that you have individual humans just like you and me. Some are 'good', some are 'bad', and all we can do is live our lives to our own convictions, dealing with each and every situation on it's own individual and human merit.
I'd like to think that as archaeologists (OK in my case an almost archaeologist...) we can see through this generalisation and realise that 'all GM is bad' (we've been genetically modifying crops and animals since the dawn of agriculture or before), all right-wing/left-wing ideas are bad (patently absurd), we-know-what-is-best (quite how given the depth of history that produces any given situation beats me) are all the sort of false dichotomy that themselves produce the problems we all seem to have issues with.
Not sure if any of that makes any sense, but fancied a ramble after a day of washing mud off clothes...
Aparthied?? - with poll - Boxoffrogs - 8th February 2014
The USA is influencing (some would say running) Israel...
Aparthied?? - with poll - Tool - 8th February 2014
Boxoffrogs Wrote:The USA is influencing (some would say running) Israel...
And some would say what is the evidence for this? There are many of them conspiracy-theorist types who would say it's the other way around. Yes there are parallels in international views between the US and Israel, but to say one is in the pocket of the other is not supported by evidence. It's more that certain (unsupportable?) views about the Muslim world held by both states coincide, and that that both hold political/economic influence in each other's countries.
Aparthied?? - with poll - Wax - 9th February 2014
I am with tool on this "it's never that simple"
The original question cannot be answered without getting someone's back up and is simplistic to such a degree as to be unanswerable. Is this forum the place for this type of poll anyway? Yes I know it's good to debate issues but this is one of those issues that is divisive and no matter which side you come down on will cause someone else to go into rant mode.
Aparthied?? - with poll - Ken Denham - 10th February 2014
Totally agree with you there Wax, been waiting for someone to voice that opinion.
Aparthied?? - with poll - P Prentice - 10th February 2014
what a croc of fence sitting apologist nonsense. the state of israel democratically elects a government which they know will defy international law and maintain a state of apathied. the palestinians dont need us to talk about it they need us to do something.
debate is devisive, issues do matter and ranting can be justified a lot easier than defying international law and maintaining an apatheid state!
Aparthied?? - with poll - Jack - 10th February 2014
Wax Wrote:I am with tool on this "it's never that simple"
The original question cannot be answered without getting someone's back up and is simplistic to such a degree as to be unanswerable. Is this forum the place for this type of poll anyway? Yes I know it's good to debate issues but this is one of those issues that is divisive and no matter which side you come down on will cause someone else to go into rant mode.
I disagree. The question is simple, but is simple to answer. The definitions of what is Apartheid are out there, as are the findings of several investigations into the matter.
What is more difficult to answer/come to terms with and/or accept are the implications and political/religious/racial/moral/historical ramifications of the answer.
I agree that politics in the media is often a case of jumping from one badwagon to another, however.....
I feel that the world has ignored, avoided, forgotten and justified the Israeli form of Apartheid through remaining WWII guilt, political laziness and self-serving-looking-the-other-way-ness in favour of an easy guilt-placating illusion of right and wrong and hunt for stability.
I could easily be wrong though. I have never been to the middle east, though I have met people who live there. I have no doubt that the media (BBC, Rueters, Al Jazeera and Jerusalem Post) are each biased in their own way and even tracking stories through the differing sides the real story is lost.
It's just so obvious the biasing in reporting/opinion/justification/ or even what is wrong and what is ok/ignored or even what you can or can't say with respect to the war crimes committed by Israel, Syria, Al queda, the FSA etc etc.
Aparthied?? - with poll - Wax - 10th February 2014
Sorry guys I am neither Israeli or Palestinian nor have I ever been to the country. Without personal experience I cannot judge on this. I know the information I get from which ever side will be biased. There are enough injustices and inequalities at home that I have personal experience of for me to be fighting against. As for defying international laws let's sort our own house out first.
I will agree the world is a mess and full of injustice but my priorities are the messes on my own doorstep. Apologist fence sitting may be but I only have enough energy to fight my own battles so I leave it to you dynamic international activists to sort the rest of the world out.