+- BAJR Federation Archaeology (http://www.bajrfed.co.uk)
+-- Forum: BAJR Federation Forums (http://www.bajrfed.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: The Site Hut (http://www.bajrfed.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Thread: Lots of Work in Australia (/showthread.php?tid=770)
Lots of Work in Australia - Starchers - 4th January 2008
Okay up front I will state that I went to UWA and I work as an archaeological consultant in Western Australia
So...
I cannot allow some of Arthus' comments to go unchallenged
Some of the people I went to Uni with were quiet racist and were only interested in colonial stuff, however many of them now work in Indigenous archaeology, some may have changed their minds some are just doing it for the money
Whoa, what are you basing this on? So you are saying that because somebody studied historical archaeology and not Aboriginal archaeology thus they are racist? I'm sorry that's quite possibly the most ignorant comment I've heard in a long time
Most of the work is walking the route of new mine roads etc looking for lithics and art etc.
It is not rocket science
Nor is it for the unqualified, so please do not make it sound as if anyone who's read a book on archaeology can do it, lithics and art etc does require a certain amount of specialisation.
Many white Australian archaeologists believe that as Australian only they can work with Aboriginal people. In fact this is rubbish, outsiders who wish to learn have just a good chance of geting on with Aboriginal people.
A ludicrous statement, perhaps you have met one or two who believe this, I never have, but many? I work with archaeologists from a number of ethnic backgrounds Chinese, Italian, Irish, Spanish and English. Ethnicity has nothing whatsoever to do with a persons abilities to work with Aboriginal people and I challenge you to put forward some evidence that this belief prevails in archaeology in Western Australia, other than "cos you said so".
But if you are younger enough to get a working holiday visa and act fast you can get a $90000 a year job and then will be able to get citizenship.
Um no, that isn't going to happen, you require more experience in Australian Archaeology than that which you will have when you get off the boat to obtain that sort of salary. I also believe the citizenship application is a tad harder than that.
You also start to go on about how racist Australian society is, hmmm I am not prepared to get into that extremely complictaed discussion with you, it is a multi layered issue and I'm not saying you are entirely wrong in a lot of your points on this, but what is the aim of your post here, to advertise employment opportunities in WA as the title of the thread suggests or to discuss racism. Maybe that is best kept to another thread as I don't think the two issues are THAT related
On that note..........
I'm very surprised that its found surprising that archaeologists might be racist. Have you ever been to WA?
Well I am extremely suprised that this should be the case, as I mentioned I live and work in WA and I have NEVER met a racist archaeologist. I find this incredible, perhaps there are some but I am yet to meet one in the past 7 years.
Don't you think its strange that out of 60 students in my undergad year at UWA only a handful of students were interested in Aboriginal archaeology?
No not at all, the majority of people who study archaeology do not desire a career in this field, only 8 from my class of 80 went on to do honours and of that 8 only 4 currently work in this field, it's actually the norm. I fail to see how this is an example of racism.
And all the white students just love the Romans and Egypt and digging up some crappy colonial farm from the 1930s (colonial bit designed to enrage the easily enraged).
What is wrong with somebody studying these fields and even participating in digging up a "crappy colonial farm"? as you amusingly call it. This comment gave me a chuckle.
Working in the 'justice' [sic] system one knows that shoot to kill still operates in the bush.
Hmmm you're starting to drift a bit now, you make it sound like the wild west, I hope this is meant as an analogy.
For everyone else reading this and interested in working in Australia, yes there is work, no there is not 100's of positions to fill, yes there is a mining boom that is facilitating this work, no it will not last forever. If you are looking for work I suggest you contact some of the consultancy companies before you arrive, keep in mind you will not be earning $90 000.00 a year or even anywhere close to it, you will need a degree in archaeology and be prepared to learn. Wages are based on experience.
http://www.australianarchaeologicalassociation.com.au/ is a good point of contact
Lots of Work in Australia - BAJR Host - 4th January 2008
Thanks Statchers... a well written and honest reply.
I would be interested in
a) Continuining the discussion on the ethicity issue for archaeology... whether UK or Australia or Amaerica.. etc...
b) Firmer details of the structure of Oz Archaeology
how similar or disimilar to UK arcaheology etc... what the wages are (on average for a Digger, Supervisor, Project MAnager) and what are they called... what is expected... is it more like US archaeology with shovel pitting and walking the lines... OR like UK with DBAs (though I can see thats gonna be hard in Oz) and Evaluation trenching... or is it a mix...
more info please.. and feel free to start a new thread on either..
"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu
Lots of Work in Australia - Digger - 4th January 2008
Thanks also Starchers, was getting a bit hot under the collar. I studied at UQ and have worked on aboriginal burials with communinty representatives in a Victorian burial ground. The scene is all a bit more complex in OZ then the UK (where I currently work).
The reality is (at times) excavating other, living cultures, heritage. If a peoples tradition say they have been in a place forever and then the archaeologist states that the C14 dates actually say you've only been here for the last 13000 years can result in complex ethical issues. It can be a complete mine field in observing cultural sensativities. Those (such as Starchers et al) can probably describe the complexities and regional issues in better detail.
Lots of Work in Australia - BAJR Host - 4th January 2008
I think it is better to get hot under the collar and then consider (as you have done) what this brings up.
many thanks for keeping this a fascinating discussion over a complex issue
"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu
Lots of Work in Australia - Arthus - 7th January 2008
A number of points, it is not that people only been interested in historical archaeology, classical archaeology, who do not bother to study anything about Aboriginal society are definately racist. But some are.
If you need confirmation of this then email me and I will give you the number of Mike an Aboriginal archaeologist who was with me at UWA in 2003.
He can tell you what people said to him or maybe you could talk to the present Aboriginal honours student.
Starchers were you at UWA 2003?
Coming from WA did you think it was strange that Rottnest Island is a holiday resort on the site of a concentration camp?
Or is it the rest of the world who are odd?
Do you think thats why they don't tell the holiday makers about Rottnest, might the Europeans be put off?
If your really want I could give you the name of the person currently working for the DIA in Perth who made racists comments (often)to Mike (an Aboriginal student) in 2003.
You want his number he went to Flinders.
Why not contact Jane Balme and ask how many students are interested in Indigenous archaeology compared to classical.
The point is if you recognise lithics you can quickly learn how to recognise Australian tools.
Many white Australian archaeologists believe that as Australian only they can work with Aboriginal people. In fact this is rubbish, outsiders who wish to learn have just a good chance of geting on with Aboriginal people.
I stand by this statement, my experience of working as a nurse for many years was that Aboriginal prisioners prefered the Irish or Scotts but took to anyone who was honest.
There are unlimited jobs at the moment due to the mines, why would such a minority of students not be interested in Aboriginal archaeology when WA has some of the most important sites in the World?
And you must know tyhe student who is getting $90 000 a year at BHP.
Never met a racist archaeologist! There aint many but you have not been asking the right questions.
Could you honestly say that Aboriginal people have never met a racist Archaeologist or anthropologist, just ask them.
Ask R (who is Aboriginal) doing honours, do you know him?
Or is it they who a wrong?
Ring up your Aboriginal friends and ask them.
Shoot to kill still happpens in the bush.
Just over 2% of the Australian population are indigenous but they make up 14% of the adult gaol population and 44% of juvenile justice.
On average Aboriginal Australians die 20 years before white Australians.
Would any white students at UWA have mixed with Aboriginal kids at school?
Not many and so the white students are at least confused and affraid.
Perth has a nice climate but is a bit of a racist hole. For example many of the British migrants who came in the 1970s came to 'get away from the blacks in Birmingham' (sic)and now we have had an influx of white south Africans (not ALL racist of course).
What to you think of the hundreds of statues in Perth to whites but the one statue of Yagan on Herrisson Island has his head cut off every year.
What about the first 10 executions at Fremantle gaol being Asian people and the lack of knowledge of the Kimberley being opened up by Asian cow boys.
The fact that the finest rock art in the world is not fully protected.
And incidently colonialism, racism, predjudice is everywhere.
In 1968 Catholics in Northern Ireland could not vote and were machine gunned by the B-specials.
In 1968 Aboriginal people could not vote either.
Ireland was Englands first colonial conquest Australia a later one.
In fighting racism we need to look at our own backyards.
I have fought racism in the UK,Japan and Australia.
Racism is not the preserve of the working class there are plenty of racists in Perth. Many went to scotch college and probabily some of their Fathers and Grand Fathers used to gaol people up to 1968 for walking across Perth CBD or drinking with their white friends.
Do you think the people who are still alive who gaoled, screwed, ripped off and beat Aboriginal people ought to apologise?
And how about the government apologising for the stolen generation?
Arthus
Lots of Work in Australia - BAJR Host - 7th January 2008
I do have to ask (as there are many cases of prisons being converted into modern utilities) Do you have a particular thing about Rottnest Island. ?
My one comment is that painting a racist picture of WA is rather worrying, and restraint should be considered. I too have fought racisim for many years - right back into the early 80s. Two things I learned - everyone is a bit racist ... 99% of people are not bad.
To claim Perth is a racist hole, or that 70s migrants came there to excape blacks, is a broad brush indeed, and smacks of the " I have one quote - and that will do for me to represent the whole of Perth" mentality.
You obviously feel strongly... but never let strong feelings and anger blind you to make statements that are so overblown they become both offensive in themselves and dangerous. Using emotive words such as "Concentration Camp" or tarring a specific place or establishment as "Racist" is not a good way to make a point...
I will be watching this thread more closely -
"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu
Lots of Work in Australia - BAJR Host - 7th January 2008
This link should help a bit about the Prison and Camp (and in terms of where things stand in 200:face-thinks:
http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=145&ContentID=17851 (jan2007)
http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=36121 (aug 2007)
An Article by a Peter Limb about the site...
http://www.lib.msu.edu/limb/a-z/az.rob.html
this provides more info
"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu
Lots of Work in Australia - Starchers - 7th January 2008
Okay at this point I am going to disengage from this discussion. Arthus, you are talking a load of dribble. Yes many of the things you are talking about happened, some of them 100 years ago and more, some have been corrected where possible, much more needs to be done. The history of the treatment of Aboriginal people is appaling in this country. I may add that it started when the British colonised and continued for long after that. You obviously feel passionate about this, however you are just spewing forth diatribe and vitriol so I'm not going to engage you in any of this.
To everyone else there are not hundreds of jobs available here in the mining sector, yes there are some yes it is well paid once you have the experience, please see my post above for some advice on that. Which I believe was the heading of this topic anyway.
Lots of Work in Australia - BAJR Host - 7th January 2008
Thanks Starchers ... I think the links you gave were good and useful to people. I fear that suggesting that every tom Duck and digger could walk into Oz and a 90k job may not be the case for everyone.
"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu
Lots of Work in Australia - Arthus - 14th January 2008
(This has been copied from the other Australian discussion, it should have been here in the first place)
I will be watching this thread more closely â
Me too.
Iâve left it a while, given myself a cooling off period. However, I am afraid I have just got more angry.
Yes, I do have a thing about Rottnest Island. Itâs because it WAS a concentration camp used to execute and detain Aboriginal prisoners and this fact is covered up in order to ensure the continual profits from the people who visit this beautiful place.
Concentration camp as with the British in South Africa or when John Howard locked up five year old unaccompanied refugees in desert concentration camps.
This reminds me of the history wars, next we will be arguing if genocide occurred.
I wonât bother, just look up the UN definition.
I think tourists should be told about the real history of Rottnest.
Having extensively travelled around Australia I suspect that many of the tourists who flock to the genuine sellers of Aboriginal art, the Aboriginal owned art galleries. Which in the âniceâ towns are on the high street and in the ânon-niceâ [non-nice ok? Not too shocking in language?] they find by following the lonely planet guide they find the people, down a dusty track and these people at least might like to know the facts.
Now Iâm an Aussie, I am a citizen, of course when I got my passport at the ârocksâ in Sydney, I had only to agree that I knew that compulsory voting ($20 fine if you donât) was the rule. I mean I didnât have to take the new citizen test and name the first Prime minister of Australia or even repeat the government slogan on the celebration of federation, âa country born with a vote and no a warâ.
Nice, except of course if you look at the alliance of Labor and Capital which introduced the White Australia policy and ensured that even if a none White migrant could speak English they could always be tested in Serbian. And that in the 1950s, the government policy was to ensure no Jews or undesirables got in (Asians) got in (could be seen as emotive language I suppose, but look it up).
Thatâs all in the past I suppose. Actually only a few years ago when my friend was harried (racial abuse) on the streets âto get back to his own countryâ whilst me and my partner who at the time were migrants were not. Of course, the fact that Daves father was a Chinese who had managed to live in NSW countryside because of the support of the local community in the 1950s and was more Aussie than us was not considered by the racists (sorry too strong, lets think, I know, miss guided individuals who because of their upbringing feared the people from China).
But the point is in Randwick we collected over 40000 signatures against Pauline and the vast majority from old white Australians some of whom who had fought the fascists in Sydney in the 1930s (New Guard).
So lets explain the words âracist holeâ, silly words.
I mean itâs a direct quote from another of my Aboriginal friends, but what would he know. Let us rephrase, not a âracist holeâ but a lovely place like anywhere else.
Like everywhere else, like Northern Ireland with interment, Birmingham after the IRA (*Note the large number of British agents on the army council) pub bombs when Irish shop stewards were smashed to a pulp. I mean the fact that my Irish friends who were not interested in politics were continually picked up in the 1980s, that wasnât racism I suppose?
My name is Stephen Arthur (just in case its not clear) and on my first sale of Socialist Worker I was head banged by a member of the NF, later that year my cousins husband was bashed by the police and when charged with damaging a police cell because he was black they read out what he was meant to have said in pigeon English. The fact that he taught English in Westminster Private School didnât make a difference. Plead guilty he would have got a ten pound fine, but my family fought it all the way, barristers the lot. He lost.
And when was it he was refused entry to Spain 1987 I think.
Whatâs the point of all this you ask? Whats it got to do with archaeology? Iâll get there.
What I am suggesting is that ethno centralism is common to all human societies (including hunter-gatherers), the belief that your family/society are normal and others odd is age old. But since the beginning of time people have rebelled, perhaps when they decided the Vikings/Saxons/whatever might be ok and quite interesting.
Racism is maladaptive and white supremism ends up like pedigree dogs or horses or a group of twelve families on an Island. Or the Royal family with their attempt at new blood (Norman) ends up with Diannaâ¦
It is early in the morning.
But all (most) politicians are psychopaths (sorry Iâll use less emotive, âborderline personality disordersâ) and all over the world, racism exists all over the world.
The proportion of racists is probably the same everywhere.
But, I live here, in Perth.
I joined the Anti-Nazi League in 1980, I would have no hesitation of calling most places I lived as âracist holesâ, but racist holes full of anti-racists fighting against the racists
Like Leeds, Bradford, Belfast, Paris (pick a city, country⦠which one is worse? Well of course, there are differences).
But I reckon that the better places occur because people who hate racism use emotive language, probably silly leftists who just canât shut about it have caused change.
Bit like those moaning people who went on about slavery, I mean how could they, look at all those lovely buildings in Bristol and Liverpool. I mean who wants to know about shackles under the Liver building?
And of course, fighting against people who poured petrol into the letter boxes of African Asians forced to flee from the racist Idi Amin were just creating a fuss.
Or going to France to fight the FN, or living in Japan and fighting the Uroku (Fascist who stabbed the major or Nagasaki for suggesting that the Emperor was guilty) all a waist of time.
I mean nothing has changed has it, I expect everyday you see signs up in the UK saying âfor sale to white family onlyâ donât you.
And of course any changes that did occur were not to do with âthose extremistsâ (just as bad as the others they always said) who fought at Lewisham.
By the way, I knew Blair Peaches widow.
No nothing to do with do gooding anti-racists all the changes came about by quiet people who âwent through the right channels, nothing to do with the Indian workers movement and the young Asians who fought the NF off the streets in the 70âs.
And as for the young non-Jewish communists who defied their leaders and joined with the Jews from Brick Lane and smashed Mosley in the 1930s, they should have listened to the respectable people and stoped using emotive language.
So, why the reaction? Perhaps because I was not Aussie born?
Or well let these people talk to my Aussie born Australian Aboriginal friends.
Let them see the people I meet daily in my job as a community psychiatric nurse.
Let them talk to the Aboriginal people I work with in archaeology.
So letâs be clear every country is full of racism and every one is nice too.
I remember that when Yugoslavia exploded, nice people practising genocide.
Bit like Neville really, nice man just doing his job removing light skinned Aboriginal kids.
So to get to the point finally.
I am Australian until I start talking like this and then at the BBQ, Iâm not Iâm a Pom, the fact that in health and archaeology I have spent my whole time friends with Aboriginal people and that the person Iâm arguing with has never left Subiaco and has never met an Aboriginal person doesnât matter.
So everywhere is racist but WA and Perth has a real problem with âInstitutional Racismâ.
And my evidence:
During the last two years, Perth has become full of those quaint bronze statues of people standing on the street. And who are they, white colonialists â everywhere (and if anyone can assist me in drilling a hole into one or two so we can affix a spear let me know).
The streets have plaques on the pavement to every manner of white heroâs and occasional heroines.
For example Daisy Bates is there and called âa friend of the aboriginesâ [sic], no mention of her boast that she never tolerated a half-caste [sic] baby in her camp and her approval of light skinned babies being thrown down rabbit holes.
I know of one Aboriginal statue, Yagan on Herrison Island , but then about once a year the bronze statue has its head cut off.
And we have the Graham Farmer Highway (famous footy player) but then as his daughter and brother told me he was left destitute at the time of its building.
Aboriginal custodians of Kings Park have told me they donât mind all the war memorials (although no one ever asked), it is after all a sacred site but they would like a statue for the Aboriginal fallen but its been consistently refused (lets hope the snake wakes up).
Old Swan Brewery, urban land claim refused, for years the bench nearby painted in Aboriginal colours, for years painted over, well done the emotive emotional man who kept repainting.
Now at the moment another urban land claim won in the courts but the good old Labor Party fighting it.
The exclusion zone for kids (90% Aboriginal) going to Northbridge extended.
Two years ago the specialist mental health services for Aboriginal people abolished.
My orientation at RPH included not one mention of Aboriginality and this much worse than NSW.
And Iâm afraid I have met racist archaeologists they do in fact exist and I have even met them in the UK (shock horror).
And if there is any doubt that even archaeologists can be racist note Kossinna, Kenwick man and how the BJP fooled many (including a Lord) when WAC was in India.
Yes, even archaeologists can have human flaws.
But perhaps archaeologist should study a history which is ever present.
But from the first there were white people who supported Aboriginal people, the man no one would talk to in about 1832 because he let Aboriginal people into his house, the Catholic Bishop who objected to leg and neck irons (Used in Cue until 1950), he ended up with only two people in his congregation, the communist Party in the 1930s, the Communist white soldier who fought with his Aboriginal mates on the Kokoda trail and then was arrested over and over again for drinking with his Aboriginal mates throughout the 1950s and 60s.
Catherine and Ronald Berndt, Bob Tonkinson in anthropology and Balme and Bowdler in archaeology in recent times.
There have always been anti-racists fighting in Perth.
So I will leave it there.
But what I would like to see is one of the outraged Aussie archaeologists comment.
And if they live in Perth tell me (Stephen Arthur).
Tell me if you donât agree, why you donât agree.
Challenge the facts and get over the moaning pom stuff.
For starters, IS IT OK THAT THE TRUE HISTORY OF PERTH IS HIDDEN?
And if you agree what should we do?
I mean apart from writing to UK sites and it filtering back to Australia (yes Iâve seen Ausarch)â¦
Lets stire it up
Arthus
Arthus