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+--- Thread: Tuition fees and the future of fieldwork (/showthread.php?tid=79)
Tuition fees and the future of fieldwork - roywhiting - 10th February 2006
Quote:quote:Originally posted by mercenary
No, no, no!
One of the real forces holding down wages in the industry is the presence of "mature" individuals who are often happy to work sporadically or part time, and for crappy wages because they made enough money in a previous career to sustain them in their new "hobby". While I recognize the contributions these people make to archaeology in general, they hurt the "profession" and the professionals trying to earn a living. Let's not go back to the past.
I for one am glad that graduate numbers are declining, because market forces may eventually give me a living wage. Too bad a building recession has now started to bite and I'm about to lose my job.
Tuition fees and the future of fieldwork - roywhiting - 10th February 2006
Aagh!..sorry about the broken post...try again..
Mercenary - I dissagree. For starters exactly how many old peeps out there are so loaded that they're digging just for the fun of it. I haven't met many and certainly not in numbers to suggest that they could have an impact on everyday commercial archaeology. Sorry, but that's a no-goer.
Additionally, by 'mature' I just meant people who are aged 30+ and might have been dissuaded by financial realitites in their early 20's to chose a profession with better financial rewards who subsequently decide that field archaeology is doable for them again, full-time. Anyone who is not a fresh-faced grad in their early 20's generally. Soory for any lack of clarity earlier. I know people who have successfully changed their careers in their late 30's and early 40's and have physically put younger people to shame with their exploits on site.
It's not exactly in the interests of the profession to want a decline in graduate numbers either, though I suspect you might not have been entirely serious in that comment. Any profession needs a healthy influx of grads. Not all stay but the ones that do show a commitemnet to make their way in the profession.
Tuition fees and the future of fieldwork - troll - 11th February 2006
We may just find that some graduates choose to work in a grown-up world after experiencing current commercial field archaeology.The institute that alledgedly is for field archaeologists does it`s best to encourage migration from the field in imposing an arrogant and frankly,contrived validation system that clearly sees field archs of any length of experience as simple labourers.Apparently, one is not a real grown up professional archaeologist until one leaves the coal face.Oh, and by the way, standards are optional and, ones boss is likely to be incompetent too..This is the environment that grads encounter.Roy-I`m sorry (actually, no I`m not), field archaeology is a specialism and to be frank, had an awful lot of "grown-up/real archaeologists" bothered to master it, we would`nt be in the sh*t that we are today.Consultants who can`t see or even understand the archaeology, curators who only see it once for half an hour and never ask, unit managers who could`nt tell the difference between a pound of mince and a sunday newspaper.Sorry- not having that mate.Gettin sick of unit directors who cut their teeth in the 60/70s and still believe that we work in the same way.Also getting pretty fed up with people who claim to be archaeologists but would`nt understand the job if it bit them on the arse.All this and I`m one of those who came to arch in later life from other grown-up jobs.If an old scrote like me can see the current state of play, thats one thing but, for young and new graduates, our industry can be one of the most soul destroying environments there is. Unless we sort ourselves out, the new and qualified entrants to the profession will quickly see just what an unprofessional pantomime the industry is and well, get a real job really.
..knowledge without action is insanity and action without knowledge is vanity..(imam ghazali,ayyuhal-walad)
Tuition fees and the future of fieldwork - Beki - 12th February 2006
So many people I know who came out of university with goos archaeology degrees have been put of a going into field work because of the low pay and lack of decent contracts. All of them love field work and would give anything to do it, but the amount of debt they are in from university combined with the low pay means that they are forced into finding work that will offer them security.
I have noticed a decreasing trent in the amount of students doing archaeology. Even whilst I was at univeristy there were less and less first year students every year.
The government oftern justify the massive amount of money that students have to pay by saying that graduates are more or less guaranteed well payed jobs when they leave university...:face-confused: we all know that isn't true..
Tuition fees and the future of fieldwork - mercenary - 12th February 2006
Roy,
No I'm serious about being glad there is a decline in new grads entering the profession. It is the main thing that has been holding down wages. That, and as Troll says, managers that think it is still the 60's or 70's.
I would fit in your category as a mature digger as I entered the profession at 28. What I really object to is the 50 something ex policemen or teachers that are independently wealthy (relative to me) who accept the low wages and temporary contracts because they see it as a fun hobby rather than their bread and butter.
FYI I have seen plenty of these people in the last ten years , so it is not a non-starter. Not only do they take away a job from a new graduate, but much more damagingly they reinforce in the minds of the aforementioned managers that crap wages and short term contracts are still an acceptable way to operate in the 21st Century.
Overall a blow to professionalization in the industry. If you are one of these people, with all due respect, join your local society and don't damage the prospects of the young people trying to get into the profession by taking their jobs.
Tuition fees and the future of fieldwork - the invisible man - 12th February 2006
This appears to be the most appalling piece of ageism I have ever seen. What a pity there is not equivalent legislation to that covering sex and race discrimination.
We owe the dead nothing but the truth.
Tuition fees and the future of fieldwork - kevin wooldridge - 12th February 2006
Sometime later this year age discrimination in UK employment will become illegal and a good thing too. As the government is also introducing a New Deal 50+, where employers taking on the over 50's can qualify for training grants of up to ?1500, I expect that the number of oldsters in archaeology will increase rather than decrease. Perhaps we should be preparing a BAJR "Toleration for the Aged" pack in anticipation of that day.
As someone on the cheerful side of 40, can I suggest a number of contributions 'The Aged' make to the archaeological workforce:
- The sex, drugs and rock and roll thing. We have probably done that. Probably more times than you youngsters too. So we kind of know our limits.
- Planning accurately off two trees and a blade of grass. Yep, we can probably do that too
- May have dug on the site next door 20 years back.
- More likely to own a car
- Probably get on quite well with that difficult consultant/curator, as they almost certainly 'tutored' them during their early digging career
- Almost certain to know the cheapest cafe/ best pub having visited the same town 20 years back
- Probably can use theodolites that don't rely on battery packs
- Probably doesn't listen to Radio 1.
- Probably does read books written by authors other than Philip Pullman
- Almost certainly knows the answer to the 'impossible' clue in the Times or Guardian Concise crossword
- Probably has an interest or hobby that does not involve Star Trek, Dr Who, Bilbo Baggins, war games or X-boxes
- Probably not at all bothered by the jumped-up tosser promoted beyond their abilities who takes such great pleasure in intimidating younger members of staff
- Probably appreciative of the efforts of all staff
- A joy to work with, or for
Tuition fees and the future of fieldwork - bear - 13th February 2006
radio one who would listen to that drivel, radio rutland!!!! now we're talking!!!!
yogi
Tuition fees and the future of fieldwork - gumbo - 13th February 2006
Radio Arrow Amsterdam. 675 medium wave. Oh to be back in East Anglia in Roooooooocktober.
G
Tuition fees and the future of fieldwork - SalonKitty - 13th February 2006
Another area likely to be affected by the high turnover of field staff is union membership. I know from experience that the first direct debit to be cancelled when leaving a unit which has union involvement or leaving the profession full stop is the one for membership fees to Prospect etc. If people are going into jobs as field staff with the mentality that they are not going to be around for too long, I doubt they will even wish to join in the first place. Whether or not this is a serious problem does of course depend on your view of union involvement in field archaeology, but I'm sure this can't be a good thing for them. Whether or not the unions should be attempting to address this problem is probably a subject for another topic!
