+- BAJR Federation Archaeology (http://www.bajrfed.co.uk)
+-- Forum: BAJR Federation Forums (http://www.bajrfed.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: The Site Hut (http://www.bajrfed.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Thread: volunteers/volunteering: your thoughts please. (/showthread.php?tid=186)
volunteers/volunteering: your thoughts please. - muddyandcold - 30th July 2006
Against volunteers Dr. Pete?? But you yourself stated earlier on this post that you yourself started in this way :face-huh: Mr. Hosty I believe also entered this profession as an enthusiastic volunteer... As a profession we court the public, through the media (countless TV programs, newspaper ads etc). Many units develop 'public archaeology' sides. OK they make money (but is the only reason?) I would like to think that they are investing in the future - new blood.
We are all fed up of fresh graduates who enter the field thinking they are god's gift, where in reality don't know natual from fill, or a harris matrix from a mattock.....
I agree there is a problem with commericial units taking on board 'volenteers' to replace professional staff. This is quite obviously wrong. However, a sensible ratio could be adopted (say 3 to1), where one professional would be given 3 volunteers to supervise. If after a week anyone of the vols shows no interest/etc then they could be asked to leave. An added bonus from this would be it would give the professional vital 'supervisory' experience - a requirement for them to move up the career ladder.
volunteers/volunteering: your thoughts please. - tom wilson - 30th July 2006
Hello Muddy,
firstly, just because Dr. P and many others of us cut our teeth as volunteers that doesn't mean we support the continuation of that process. They aren't called the bad old days for nothing.
Secondly, the erosion of our profession that you suggest would be an unforgiveable disaster.
There is the issue of standards. You suggest that graduates don't know what they are doing; well how will vounteers be better? Who are these putative volunteers? Some of the best archaeologists I know came into the profession through the manpower services comission, but I suspect that a lot of their '80s peers were only there for the dole money. I really don't think that there is a mass workforce of people out there yearning to leave their jobs and dig for free. If there were, the professional units would be employing them. Furthermore, where are these professional supervisors going to come from? The volunteers I presume. So you have effectively removed the tier of archaeological CPD where you learn what you are doing. Shortening the ladder doesn't help you move upwards, it justs helps standards move downwards.
Incidentally, I don't think public archaeology makes anyone money. Units do it either because it is written into their (charitable) foundations, or because someone in the organisation still remembers why they first thought archaeology was important, probably back when they were an idealistic volunteer in the '70s or '80s.
I'm not anti-volunteer. I love working with volunteers as they have so much enthusiasm. What they don't generally have is the skill-set required of a paid worker, and when they do I suggest that they ask to be paid.
'Have a good plan, execute it violently, do it today'.
General MacArthur
volunteers/volunteering: your thoughts please. - trowelfodder - 7th August 2006
Am afraid this is going to be a rant - 1 proffesional to three volunteers!!! Are you insane! How the hell do you think anyone would get any work done! Its bad enough when the recent grads on site outnumber the rest of the staff! Do you think that there are enough people with the experience to devote that amount of time and as for gaining supervisory experienc to allow them to progress their careers the phrase to many chiefs, not enough indians springs to mind.
Staff should be able to help out a few collegues who lack experience but if they are formally expected to supervise they must be paid as a supervisor. If they are not deemed competant to do this for finantial reward they should not be exploited by being expected to do it for free.
Archaeology is a proffession inst it about time we stopped promoting it as anything else.
Commercial archaeology should be just that. Commercial. Public participation has no place in this sector. Obviously talks letures etc on finds to interested groups should be carried but we must not forget that as much as many of us would like it to be so, we are no longer run in the same way as museums and university departments.
I know it sounds harsh but we need to promote and maintain standards and as such we should not have to deal with public participation as a substitiute for staff. Careers need structure and volunteer is not a career - pay people for the jobs they do.
Intersted ametuers should look elsewhere. I may sound like an archaeological nazi but i believe it is a job best left to the proffessionals. Run open days, give site talks and tours, let them see and handle finds but thats where it should end!
volunteers/volunteering: your thoughts please. - Orkynowot - 7th August 2006
Is this turning into Public archaeology Vs commercial archaeology?
In my view public archaeology should be accesesable to all volenteers and professional, as I have said at having worked at Mellor as a volenteer has helped me as I got to work with people from a unit as well as some experienced archaeologists that where amatures.
I have worked with professional archaeologist for the past six months paid and some of them there skill and ability to do the job have been suspect at best, and this ranged from diggers to project managers.
While it is fine to rant about volenteers, you need to look at the professionals, and then criticise the volenteers who do archaeology because they are students trying to get the relevant skills that many universities now do not teach, many of the universities are research based and want you to go on and do a masters and phd.
For example I having done my undergrads degree I had not done any planning at any of the university digs or any section drawing, only vaguly important [?], it was only till I got to mellor I got the chance to do any and if it wasnt for a woman who was and is one of the best planners I have seen I would not know the which end of 6H or 7H pencil to use.
So yes, Trowelfodder while I agree amatures should not be doing commercial work, they should be doing things like Mellor.
Orkynowot.
ps check out http://www.mellorarchaeology.org.uk/
May god go with you in all the dark places you must walk.
volunteers/volunteering: your thoughts please. - trowelfodder - 9th August 2006
Did get bit carried away with last post [:I]
but it does seem to me a crazy situation to be in where our graduates are not trained to do the jobs they have spent three years preparing for!
I was relatively lucky to have left university with about three and a halfs months digging experience which left me a bit green but with a huge head start on many graduates - even this was not really enough though and i think that the universities have a huge role to play in the lack of skills in archaeology.
They should provide students with the basics and a student who cannot produce simple onsite drawings has been let down by thier institution. I think it is about time unis wised up to this. Applications are down due to the mounting debt and even when you land your first job the wages are too low to offset the cost of uni.
Its a pity archaeology cannot be taught in a way more suited to the changing nature of the proffession - for example as an apprenticship with work on site as a trainee and say one or two days a week in college :face-huh:
volunteers/volunteering: your thoughts please. - the invisible man - 10th August 2006
I am all in favour of volunteer and amateur groups, whether societies. community archaeology scenes, semi-commercial fieldschools or whatever, carrying out research and fieldwork including excavation on sites that would not otherwise be investigated and recorded through the PPG16 and similar procedures, i.e. not threatened by development and thus no developer to finance it. This work may be in repsonse to a non-development threat or pure research. Naturally the work must be carried out in a appropriate manner to the same criteria as commercial work.
As discussed above however I see no place for the volunteer (in other words an unpaid worker) in the commercial sector.
Perhaps the question of training and universities is slightly off-topic, but has been discussed several times before. Certainly I feel that unis can do more, but in my opinion this should be more in the field of CRM type modules, which need to be taken more seriously and much more weighting - to continue over all three years for a start. I don't really see how unis can train circuit diggers, nor indeed why they should. It is for the industry to contribute to training its own staff - archaeology is certainly not alone in a short sighted abandonment of the concept in the scramble to win tenders however.
We owe the dead nothing but the truth.
volunteers/volunteering: your thoughts please. - Paul Belford - 10th August 2006
Peter Wardle asks
Do we have volunteer accountants, lawyers or doctors?
Do we have volunter gardeners, brickies or plumbers?
A remark which seems to have gone unquestioned. But the answer is 'Yes, of course we do'. And I for one I would wholeheartedly disagree with the increasing professionalisation of everything. In this country, if you want to, you are completely legally entitled to
- manage your own finances and accounts, including tax returns, up to certain (quite high) limits beyond which professional auditing is required
- represent yourself in court, undertake your own conveyancing etc. etc., or indeed even represent someone else in court
- look after your own health and wellbeing through diet, lifestyle and exercise, no-one forces you to go to a doctor
- plant whatever you like, whenever you like in your own garden (or even concrete it over if you so choose), or do gardening for someone else without a qualification from the RHS
- build brick, stone, concrete or even timber walls entirely yourself, as long as you comply with building regulations - you can even submit your own architectural plans for planning purposes without reference to an architect
- do all and any plumbing as long as it does not involve gas appliances for which you need a CORGI-registered tradesman
Anyone can and should be encouraged to do archaeology, whenever they like wherever they like. As with repairing your own car, or doing your own household wiring, or building your own wall, its best to read the Haynes Manual, the IEE Regulations or the Local Authority Building Regulations first. So in archaeology a person proposing to do an archaeological excavation on their own private land should seek advice from professionals. But they are not compelled to employ professionals. I remember a delightful programme on Radio 4 about a chap in Monmouthshire who bought his own field with a deserted medieval village in it so that he and the local amateur archaeology society could spend the rest of their lives excavating it. Not professionals, just enthusiasts.
Contract archaeology is another matter altogether because here a non-professional has chosen to employ a professional (you or I) to undertake a task for which a fee has been agreed. This agreement is subject to rules and regulations of the local authority (curator) and the relevant professional institutions (IFA or ICE). So in those circumstances volunteer labour should be avoided or declared to the client, and the regulating authorities, at the outset.
(Rant over
. Sorry to sound quite so much like the Daily Mail, which was not my intention at all)Edited just to be on the safe side of the AUP, to sound less like the Daily Mail, and to shorten it ever so slightly!
volunteers/volunteering: your thoughts please. - Oxbeast - 10th August 2006
I agree with the invisible one, that volunteers have no place in the commercial sector. The key reason is that it depends on commerce, and people deserve to be paid for commercial activities. The question of skills/abilities of professionals and volunteers is really a non-issue. There are highly skilled volunteers and barely skilled paid folk. Indeed, surely the WSI should preclude the use of volunteers (except perhaps in post-ex) by asking for 'professional archaeologists'.
There are surely also ways of cutting your teeth on the archaeological ladder after university without working for free. Some units are so desperate that they'll hire anyone who applies. Just spam all the units till you get some with a lot of work on. And in my experience, some units will hire you if you don't know how to plan or write sheets.
Reserach excavations by local societies and others are of course fine, and some good reserach is produced like this. Fair play to local societies and anyone willing to give their time for free.
volunteers/volunteering: your thoughts please. - troll - 16th August 2006
Hate to say this invisible but I`m going to.....
There are some "professional" archaeologists who, in their first week on a new site (despite alleged years of experience) are identified as clearly incompetent and henceforth are given something else to do that won`t cause any damage. Many of the volunteers I have worked with make some "professionals" look like single celled amoeba.
..knowledge without action is insanity and action without knowledge is vanity..(imam ghazali,ayyuhal-walad)
volunteers/volunteering: your thoughts please. - the invisible man - 16th August 2006
I'm not sure what you're trying to say Troll, but the competence or not of volunteers is not the question here, it is the principal of volunteers (i.e. unpaid workers) on commercial sites that is under discussion.
We owe the dead nothing but the truth.