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+--- Thread: a degree of competence? (/showthread.php?tid=1989)
a degree of competence? - monitor lizard - 7th September 2005
Quote:quote:Originally posted by eggbasket
The ones that worry me are the graduates who go straight from a degree into jobs like heritage management and development control without first "serving their time". I don't see how they can have the same "feel" for the archaeology as those that have worked in the field.
Eggbasket
Eggy by name, eggy by nature
I see a fair bit of this - and it does worry me if for nothing more than the sheer practical knowledge that you pick up when you've been around a few sites (which can sedgeway back to a H&S discussion yet again).
However, what you lot haven't mentioned with the CMR and DC work vs digging is who is doing the hiring. Employers such as county councils will probably have different basic requirements for 'professional' level jobs than your average unit, and that will almost certainly include having a relevent degree.
And something that annoys me even more (and I've mentioned it here before) is that the cold hard cash and level of experience required for the newest crop of archaeology advisors keeps on decreasing. I don't think I'm far off the mark is recalling recent adverts with 2 - 3 years experience and in the ?15k mark. You're never going to get a County Mounty with gravitas for those wages.
But I've digressed.....
ML
a degree of competence? - mercenary - 7th September 2005
Exactly the reason why I'm quite happy in the field.
a degree of competence? - destroyer - 7th September 2005
Interestingly just reading through all these comments i notice that virtually all of you are posting during the working day, now either theres a hell of a lot of diggers with laptops or we're all graduates who avoid doing any digging
a degree of competence? - destroyer - 7th September 2005
Quote:quote:Originally posted by eggbasket
Thinking about it, this is the area where I disagree with destroyer. In my opinion, you should not have to volunteer just to get the experience you need and I think this is a bad hangover from the bad old days when archaeology was not professional. Archaeologists are professionals (degree or not). Therefore, it seems to me that they should be trained and paid while they train. It might only be a training wage but I do think that it is disgusting that archaeologists should have to volunteer to get the experience they need. How many other professions rely upon people gaining their experience as volunteers first?
Actually eggbasket, i quite agree with you, why should people have to volunteer to get training? Years ago i actually paid to go on digs, after which i finally managed to get paid work. Ideally this wouldnt happen but in this job of ours, which some people actually want to do for fun during their holidays, its a matter of competing against everybody else.
As an example of another profession though in a similar position look at journalism. My brother did his degree, while volunteering for hours every week editing the student rag, he did his professional postgrad journalism courses while volunteering on local papers and even then he struggled to get work due to a lack of experience. Its catch 22, no exp=no work, no work=no exp. Volunteering is a way to break through that problem, until units are able to afford to hire non-digging graduates and put them through proper training
a degree of competence? - deepdigger - 7th September 2005
"The average digger, at the bottom of the pile, just needs to have some common sense and the ability to hold a shovel and dig a pit section. Plus have enough brain to recognise a bit of pot, bone or flint when they see it (no need to date or identify it, just recovery), and the ability to ask the PO what to do next if they're not sure."
What kind of a statement is this?
Just who do you think you are? Mortimer Wheeler perhaps!
If you want someone to just hold a shovel and dig then thats all you deserve,I for one don't want to be subserviant to anyone, let alone tug my forelock and say" I found this bit of pot boss, don't know where it was made or when, er where do you want me to dig next"!
And we want archaeology to be inclusive of everyone!
Ha! What a joke, no wonder good people are leaving archaeology by the droves with this kind of attitude!
deep
a degree of competence? - Sith - 8th September 2005
Quote:quote:Originally posted by deepdigger
[brWhat kind of a statement is this?
Just who do you think you are? Mortimer Wheeler perhaps!
I think that you might be taking the comment out of context somewhat. Destroyer an my earlier posts simply state that you don't need to have the brain of Stephen Hawking or the archaeological experience of Phil Harding (
) to be able to excavate and record a ditch (or any other type of) section. You just need to be reasonably intelligent, well supervised and willing to take advice.Sith
a degree of competence? - eggbasket - 8th September 2005
Quote:quote:Originally posted by destroyer
Interestingly just reading through all these comments i notice that virtually all of you are posting during the working day, now either theres a hell of a lot of diggers with laptops or we're all graduates who avoid doing any digging
Well, I must admit to spending more time in the office than on site these days, so it is hardly surprising that I post during the day more than in the evening or at weekends.
Eggbasket
Eggy by name, eggy by nature
a degree of competence? - achingknees - 8th September 2005
Quote:quote:Originally posted by deepdigger
"The average digger, at the bottom of the pile, just needs to have some common sense and the ability to hold a shovel and dig a pit section. Plus have enough brain to recognise a bit of pot, bone or flint when they see it (no need to date or identify it, just recovery), and the ability to ask the PO what to do next if they're not sure."
What kind of a statement is this?
Just who do you think you are? Mortimer Wheeler perhaps!
If you want someone to just hold a shovel and dig then thats all you deserve,I for one don't want to be subserviant to anyone, let alone tug my forelock and say" I found this bit of pot boss, don't know where it was made or when, er where do you want me to dig next"!
And we want archaeology to be inclusive of everyone!
Ha! What a joke, no wonder good people are leaving archaeology by the droves with this kind of attitude!
deep
Destroyer might have been a little blunt but I think that you over-react again. There was no mention of forelock tugging or subservience. There is usually a supervisory/management chain on any site - that was all Destroyer alluded to. That said, the concept of an archaeological co-operative organisation has some appeal [:o)]
a degree of competence? - 1man1desk - 8th September 2005
Quote:quote:Err! actually it's people like you lot that are delibretly holding wages at an artificially low level just to keep costs down!
If you want people who just dig the hole and sift through the mud for finds then go and recruit brain dead morons off the dole, you don't of course want anyone with any brains because it might take the spotlight off you, and your ilk!
Destroyer
You don't deserve archaeologists mate, in fact i think you may have picked the right user name as you are destroying British archaeology for the sake of your own selfish career!
My extensive volunteering experience took place in the late 1970s-early 80s. My attitude now is, that volunteering should (nowadays) be completely banned from all commercially-tendered fieldwork, except on a small scale where it is used as part of an 'outreach' excersise on a dig that would still be fully-resourced with pros if there were no volunteers.
However, volunteering on research/training excavations is still an entirely valid part of an archaeologist's education.
As far as degrees are concerned, it doesn't prove either intelligence or competence, and for people working at the same level of responsibility it should make no difference to pay. I would pay an experienced but unqualified digger who had demonstrated his competence and intelligence to me more than I would pay an inexperienced digger whith a degree.
I do whatever I can to influence wages for archaeological site staff upwards. I can't tell units what to pay, but I can and do leave units off tender lists if I know that they pay below the IFA recommended minimum. Anything more than that is outside my limited powers as a consultant.
1man1desk
a degree of competence? - destroyer - 10th September 2005
As i think i said near the start of this thread, it would be quite nice if everybody had a degree but i still dont think its essential, or even practical, no matter how much deepdigger wants to insult me. Ok so one of my comments may have been slightly flippant but it still broadly sums up my opinion.
It certainly isnt feasible in the current climate where site staff wages are not even sufficent to start paying back student loans (but thats another problem).