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+--- Thread: Archaeologists against the cuts (/showthread.php?tid=3492)
Archaeologists against the cuts - Dinosaur - 6th October 2010
We (as a company) have looked for a way to 'grade' diggers for years but given up (apart from obvious things like chucking stuff like more jobs and more overtime at them) but it doesn't work, clients just look at number of shovels in action and will only pay a flat rate, they're not interested in paying for experience and skill. The couple of times 'experienced' and 'less experienced' pay rates have been tried here the 'less experienced' don't get why they're getting paid less.....pay scales for diggers in the merry world of non-council commercial archaeology don't seem to work too well, unless someone out there knows otherwise? Personally I think it's ******g outrageous that someone with 20-30 years of experience and who puts in a good day's work gets paid the same as someone with 2 weeks experience who can't use a shovel and spends all day counting down to 5 o'clock, mostly while hiding in the cabin. IFA don't help, they don't seem to think that long service deserves any particular recognition amongst diggers, their attitude seems to be that they if they haven't tried to 'better' themselves ...... :face-stir:
Archaeologists against the cuts - BAJR - 6th October 2010
This is part of the reason why I am being part of the Skills Passport initiative... you pay for what you get... and education is needed for the client. They are baffled I am not running the site (bless!) but they see the difference a lag can make, as they know it themselves from the building trade... we have to explain to them... not hope they work it out... and pay scales can only help a new recruit have something to aim to... at teh moment it goes straight to supervisor... so for a couple of extra quid... you get a whole heap of stress... nice one!
Quote: their attitude seems to be that they if they haven't tried to 'better' themselvesI could not possibly comment... being a grubby sort
But I will be at the Leicester Careers Day on the panel along with the IfA - at least I know what a field looks like
and today was still more than capable of doing survey training and shoveling out (stratigraphy) a 1.2m deep ditch for 2.5m and enjoyed it... (indeed Dino) one of your ex people was in the other ditch coming towards me he's good too... but I digress
Archaeologists against the cuts - Dinosaur - 6th October 2010
Hope his back's holding up ok :face-approve:
Archaeologists against the cuts - Mike.T. - 6th October 2010
Dinosaur Wrote:We (as a company) have looked for a way to 'grade' diggers for years but given up (apart from obvious things like chucking stuff like more jobs and more overtime at them) but it doesn't work, clients just look at number of shovels in action and will only pay a flat rate, they're not interested in paying for experience and skill. The couple of times 'experienced' and 'less experienced' pay rates have been tried here the 'less experienced' don't get why they're getting paid less.....pay scales for diggers in the merry world of non-council commercial archaeology don't seem to work too well, unless someone out there knows otherwise? Personally I think it's ******g outrageous that someone with 20-30 years of experience and who puts in a good day's work gets paid the same as someone with 2 weeks experience who can't use a shovel and spends all day counting down to 5 o'clock, mostly while hiding in the cabin. IFA don't help, they don't seem to think that long service deserves any particular recognition amongst diggers, their attitude seems to be that they if they haven't tried to 'better' themselves ...... :face-stir:
Therein lies the problem. If Contractors realised that skilled diggers DO THE JOB QUICKER AND BETTER than someone who hides in the tea hut all day, then perhaps skilled workers would get paid more. Anyway that's a shoddy excuse. Would a 360 digger driver who's been doing the job for 15 years get paid the same as someone who's just started ? No. In any other profession, apart from Archaeology, experienced workers get paid more.
As for ''bettering'' yourself, it often seems to be who you know, rather than actually how good you are.
Archaeologists against the cuts - Unitof1 - 7th October 2010
Don't worry about Unit.... treat it as background noise... you can always ignore him. There a button somewhere on an ignore list in your settings.
Quote:[SIZE=3]To play devils advocate for a moment...if they do go off to work in a bank it’s likely they will earn more than a professional archaeologist, therefore pay more income tax. If we are going to value an individuals contribution to society in purely financial terms, then why should taxpayers fork out to subsidise low paid archaeologists?[/SIZE]
Good point, as I said close down the archaeology departments us archaeologists don’t want any subsidies. Give them to the banks. If they are probably full of archaeology graduates gawed help them. If taking on archaeology graduates has done for the banks we don’t want them. I hope that they don’t need to do any three four triangles.
On a less serious note
Quote:
[SIZE=3]but it doesn't work, clients just look at number of shovels in action and will only pay a flat rate, they're not interested in paying for experience and skill. The couple of times 'experienced' and 'less experienced' pay rates have been tried here the 'less experienced' don't get why they're getting paid less.....
[/SIZE]
and the reason for this is that there is no discernable difference in product. Whats the point of setting up the dumpy in 1m8secs when there does not appear to be increase in product or what is the difference between a context sheet filled out by an experienced “archaeologist” or an inexperienced digger?
Archaeologists against the cuts - Dinosaur - 7th October 2010
A huge cost benefit, actually, if it means I can actually recover some intelligable information from them afterwards when writing the report - actually I long since gave up and tend to record anything of any importance on site myself. Plus of course someone who can fill in 20 sheets intelligently on site actually looking at what he/she's writing about by tea-break is always gonna be better than one who does one badly and full of c**p while skulking in the hut in the same time..... :face-thinks:
Archaeologists against the cuts - Mike.T. - 7th October 2010
In reply to Unit of One's post :
I would have thought the difference was obvious. More experienced staff = site dug faster + less mistakes in recording, therefore saving time retifying mistakes post ex. Both of which mean that substantial savings can be made and therefore the whole job can be done cheaper.
Archaeologists against the cuts - gwyl - 7th October 2010
Dinosaur Wrote:Plus of course someone who can fill in 20 sheets intelligently on site actually looking at what he/she's writing about by tea-break is always gonna be better than...i always enjoy working with those individuals; you know that you can trust them implicitly - and they're so often the ones who leave as they realise that archaeology is either a waste of their talents or else that they can get on by modifying their career trajectory rather than staying on-site waiting to get moved from one site to another ad nauseum without any sense of progression for peanuts
Archaeologists against the cuts - deadlylampshade - 7th October 2010
Mike.T. Wrote:In reply to Unit of One's post :
I would have thought the difference was obvious. More experienced staff = site dug faster + less mistakes in recording, therefore saving time retifying mistakes post ex. Both of which mean that substantial savings can be made and therefore the whole job can be done cheaper.
Buy the man a drink! Someone with some business sense at last!
Archaeologists against the cuts - Dinosaur - 8th October 2010
Mike.T. Wrote:In reply to Unit of One's post :
I would have thought the difference was obvious. More experienced staff = site dug faster + less mistakes in recording, therefore saving time retifying mistakes post ex. Both of which mean that substantial savings can be made and therefore the whole job can be done cheaper.
Problem solved then, we can save the country by shutting all the uni courses, think of the money saved! Get shot of all the inexperienced youth, cull the useless and jobs for life for the rest of us with trebled wages. Good one, suits me, won't ever again have to explain the difference between a spade and a shovel to someone with an archaeology MA :face-approve: