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+--- Thread: a degree of competence? (/showthread.php?tid=1989)
a degree of competence? - Silent Bob - 13th September 2005
I once heard a former county archaeologist airily tell some visitors that 'of course you can only get to a certain level without a degree.' I was somewhat irked as all the best field archaeologists I work with didn't go to university. I did and I feel my degree has been of bugger all use in respect to promotion. You know how in all of those films where someone finds a perfectly preserved Greek/Roman city which has happily lain undiscovered for 2000 years and then within half a day an earthquake/volcano wipes it out. Well the day field archaeology becomes a meritocracy is the day the Cotswolds Fault (or whatever) singes the whole of Britain with firey lava.
a degree of competence? - deepdigger - 14th September 2005
Perhaps if the parasitic consultants took a little less money from ech and every job we could all earn a decent living, as it is a consultant takes( by their own admission on this board)more money per day than most of us earn in a week.
Oh I forgot, they are worth it!!
deep
a degree of competence? - eggbasket - 14th September 2005
Quote:quote:Originally posted by Silent Bob
Well the day field archaeology becomes a meritocracy is the day the Cotswolds Fault (or whatever) singes the whole of Britain with firey lava.
As has been stated before, a degree is not a sign of competence. As such, I would suggest that field archaeology is more of a meritocracy than you give it credit for. After all, if people without degrees but with genuine competence can rise through the ranks, is that not pretty much the definition of a meritocracy? If you can actually apply your degree to your work and demonstrate that you are doing your job well and want to be promoted then you should get ahead. Of course, pissing off your managers is a sure-fire way to not be promoted, while butt-kissing has its merits.
Of course, my own rise through the ranks was accomplished by being willing to take on the ****tiest jobs the unit had to offer and then try to make a go of them despite the unit manager's obvious desire that they should fail from the outset due to only putting tuppence ha'penny in the budget. Not sure if that is promotion on merit or just promotion because no one else was willing to take the **** I was willing to take.
Eggbasket
Don't have a stegosaurus, man.
a degree of competence? - eggbasket - 14th September 2005
Quote:quote:Originally posted by deepdigger
Perhaps if the parasitic consultants took a little less money from ech and every job we could all earn a decent living, as it is a consultant takes( by their own admission on this board)more money per day than most of us earn in a week.
Oh I forgot, they are worth it!!
Dood,
Give it a rest. You have obviously not taken on board what has been said on the subject before. Pay rates are not and have never been determined by what consultants take from the job. Ask the personnel people, or whoever sets your pay, where you work how they determine what people should be paid instead if you don't believe the rest of us.
Eggbasket
Don't have a stegosaurus, man.
a degree of competence? - 1man1desk - 14th September 2005
Deepdigger,
Eggbasket is right - if you can't be bothered to read previous posts on this topic and actually think about them, or to actually address the points made rather than just repeating previous unsupported accusations, then I'll know how much respect to give your views. Previous posts have shown how the involvement of consultants cannot influence diggers pay downwards, but can sometimes influence it upwards.
You did make one new point - about the amount that consultants get paid. However, you are not comparing like with like. The fees paid for consultants do not represent their personal income any more than the fees your unit gets paid for your time matches what you take home.
I know what I get paid, what I am charged out at and what the profit level is. I do get charged out at more than twice what a digger is paid, but I certainly don't take anything like that much home. Also, I am a very senior and experienced consultant leading a team of other consultants (having previously been an experienced and senior field archaeologist). The differential is much less for most consultants.
1man1desk
to let, fully furnished
a degree of competence? - achingknees - 14th September 2005
Quote:quote:Originally posted by deepdigger
Perhaps if the parasitic consultants took a little less money from ech and every job we could all earn a decent living, as it is a consultant takes( by their own admission on this board)more money per day than most of us earn in a week.
Oh I forgot, they are worth it!!
deep
What the f*** has this got to do with the thread? I work out fieldwork costs. If the unit is also involved as a consultant that is added on. But there is no way that our fieldwork costs are impinged upon by external consultants. There has been plenty posts up here on the role of consultants. Please read them
Back to the thread. I believe that archaeology has a good element of meritocracy (but some sh*t rises too!). However, the degree requirement does seem to be on the increase in lots of job specs. Pity.
a degree of competence? - deepdigger - 14th September 2005
Rubbish!
If a development is going to take place on a commercial basis then a budget is going to be set aside by the developer for that. this would include all costs, archaeology and consultants, if we were to cut out the consultants there would be more money in the pot!
Get real people!! Its happening!!
deep
a degree of competence? - eggbasket - 14th September 2005
Quote:quote: (but some sh*t rises too!).
Not only does it rise, but it also comes down from above!
Don't have a stegosaurus, man.
a degree of competence? - eggbasket - 14th September 2005
Quote:quote:Originally posted by deepdigger
Rubbish!
If a development is going to take place on a commercial basis then a budget is going to be set aside by the developer for that. this would include all costs, archaeology and consultants, if we were to cut out the consultants there would be more money in the pot!
Get real people!! Its happening!!
Deep,
Your response demonstrates a charming naivete about how funding in the commercial archaeological world works. To put it quite simply, there is no pot as such. The developer sets the budget based on what the field unit tenders and also the costs that the consultant quotes. They do not feed out of a predetermined pot. How could the developer actually predict archaeological costs without being a specialist in the subject?
If you are totally convinced about your point and unwilling to listen to the rest of us, then I suggest that you make a research project of it and present a paper on the subject at the BAJR conference to try to convert the rest of us.
Cheers,
Eggbasket
Don't have a stegosaurus, man.
a degree of competence? - 1man1desk - 14th September 2005
Deep,
You're talking garbage.
Once the scope of archaeological work has been set (essentially by the curator), the developer has to pay for it, even if the tender price is more than his budget. He cannot decide to pay less for fieldwork just to pay a consultant. If there was no consultant, he would not pay more for the fieldwork - he'd just save some money.
Now - here are some questions for you:
1. Units get their work by tendering against a Specification. Where does the Spec come from?
(clue - most curators don't write them)
2. Tenders have to be assessed and compared both on quality and price. Who does this?
(clue - not curators, and developers don't have the expertise).
3. Both fieldwork and reports have to be monitored to ensure they are done in accordance with the Spec. Who does this?
(clue - curators try, but usually don't have the resources, and can't use the contract to enforce standards as they are not a party to it)
4. If none of the above get done, how will developers procure the archaeological work that they are obliged to do?
Now, take a deep breath, gird your loins for action and prepare for an unaccustomed exersise - actually think before answering.
1man1desk
to let, fully furnished