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Diggers Time? - BAJR Host - 17th April 2006
Things might be changing (well... are changing) in this and future years, with NVQs and Bursaries available for Practical Archaeology, to provide qualifications in real skills, which can be rewarded in real career progression.
I was interested to find out that Level 3 and 4 NVQs were equal to BAs and MAs. - not just a cousre that says, 'Wash yer hands before preparing food'
A qualified and skilled workforce is a valued and rewarded workforce.
Another day another WSI?
Diggers Time? - troll - 17th April 2006
Who says that NVQs are "equal" to under and postgrad degrees? And what does this mean?
..knowledge without action is insanity and action without knowledge is vanity..(imam ghazali,ayyuhal-walad)
Diggers Time? - BAJR Host - 17th April 2006
my mistake to start with It is Levels 4 and 5 of NVQ
Here is an example from
http://www.museumsassociation.org/ma/10722
Museums Association
NVQ route
CHNTO N/SVQ at Level 4 in Cultural Heritage or Level 5 in Cultural Heritage Management
and a minimum of three years working in or for museums
OR (and by this it shows it must be equivalent in terms of employment)
A postgraduate museum studies qualification
and a minimum of three years working in or for museums
Here are the 5 levels in detail...
Level 1:
Competence that involves the application of knowledge in the performance of a range of varied work activities, most of which may be routine and predictable.
Level 2:
Competence that involves the application of knowledge in a significant range of varied work activities, performed in a variety of contexts. Some of the activities are complex or non-routine, and there is some individual responsibility or autonomy. Collaboration with others, perhaps through membership of a work group or team, may often be a requirement.
Level 3:
Competence that involves the application of knowledge in a broad range of varied work activities. These are performed in a wide variety of contexts, most of which are complex and non-routine. There is considerable responsibility and autonomy, and control or guidance of others is often required.
Level 4:
Competence that involves the application of knowledge in a broad range of complex, technical or professional work activities. These are performed in a wide variety of contexts and with a substantial degree of personal responsibility and autonomy. Responsibility for the work of others and the allocation of resources is often present.
Level 5:
Competence that involves the application of a significant range of fundamental principles across a wide and often unpredictable variety of contexts. This includes: substantial personal autonomy; significant responsibility for the work of others and for the allocation of substantial resources; personal accountability for analysis and diagnosis, design, planning, execution and evaluation.
You are partly right Troll, that it is not as simple as this equals that, and I should have clarified the broad statement. However, it does mean that if you have a L4 or 5 NVQ you will be on a par (in terms of employability) with a person with an BA or MA.
This would create two routes... Academic.... go and get your degree... Practical... go and get an NVQ... or get both... If I was employing an Archaeological Surveyor or Digger, I would 'prefer' an NVQ over a Degree as it showed practical ability... I have to confess that my knowledge of Urban settlement in late neolithic Mesopotamia has not been of as much use as how to set up a total station and carrying out a tricky resection. Horses for courses
And there is nothing to stop people from getting both... after all, as you work you are actually accruing ability... wasted just now unless it is recognised... so roll on CPDs and certifiable skills - with the reward carrot of a recognised qualification.
Another day another WSI?
Diggers Time? - the invisible man - 17th April 2006
A downside to that could be that a two tier system is created if, it doesn't exist already (formalises it if it does) as NVQ "practical" people are differentiated from degree types. A "digger" with NVQ's becomes a manual worker, albeit skilled, and may or may not if the neolithic comes before or after the bronze age. It doesn't matter if he/she does or does not, they are there for their skill with the trowel, the mattock and the planning frame. They need not concern themselves with current thinking on neolithic or bronze age society, for example, or why stiff "X" was crouched but stiff "Y" was cremated. All they need to know is how to whip 'em out fast.
One must then go on to wonder if they are, therefore, actually archaeologists at all.
We owe the dead nothing but the truth.
Diggers Time? - Dave-Bonner - 17th April 2006
You make it sound as if archaeology beyond the mere extraction/surveying/recording (in other words practical) side of things is a voluntary past-time - as long as that ditch is 5 percented and recorded we need not bother thinking about anything else - unless we've got a degree of course!
Surely one informs the other in a spiral of reflexive practise (wooooo, how pretty!). But seriously, maybe thats the difference between a good digger and a not quite so good digger - one of them gives a ****.
My point is, surely a good field archaeologist has to consider both in an informed and at least partially (innescapable) interpretive package (not to say that all do, of course, (and now teaching, eggs, grandmother sucking etc comes to mind - sorry))....or am I just being idealistic/naive?
And if that's the case, a two tier system is wholly un-acceptable. However, is it not more likely that in fact it shows that degrees are an inessential qualification in terms of how they equip a graduate digger for commercial digging (something thats been noted time and time again, and proven by the people in archaeology wothout them etc etc etc).
I think.....and i'm not wholly sure, but I think....I've just argued against a bottom tier under those circumstances being archaeologist - although that's not a very good way of putting it. Anyway, sorry if thats a load of drivell!
Gizza job!!!!! ....please!!!!!
Diggers Time? - historic building - 17th April 2006
Frankly this just looks like the dilution of traditional degrees. The number of people entering the museums profession with masters degrees is very high at present and not all masters qualifications are equal or recognised by the museums association. This may well be an effort to deal with this.
Would you regard someone with an MA in Archaeological Survey a vocational masters, in most universities, with considerable academic input equal to someone who holds an NVQ.
Diggers Time? - the invisible man - 17th April 2006
Dave, that's what I was driving at.
We owe the dead nothing but the truth.
Diggers Time? - BAJR Host - 17th April 2006
Which is why the 'Framework system' kicks in - tweaked of course....
A digger with an NVQ in Pracitcal Survey is just as good as a digger with a degree in Archaeological SUrvey and visa versa - Now if a person had adegree in survey and an NVQ... top bannana.
It is not two teir it is complementary... a skilled academic is comparable to a skilled field worker.
Another day another WSI?
Diggers Time? - Orkynowot - 23rd April 2006
I did NVQ's got 2 level 2's in Car Mechanics, was absolutley useless to me as no employer had heard of them at the time, got paid ?35.20 (the 20p was to cover travel expences as travel came over a certain amount) per week doing 5 days in a workshop and 1 day in college. Now in the gloriously underpaid and overwork world of archaeology, degeree and pg.dip and having fun in what I'm doing.
On the subject of free work at uni, done plenty of research digsd while I was there as well as gaining some experince, though not always the best, I did get to go to places that I would never have seen, Orkney and the Isle of Lewis for example.
All my expences where met by the lecturer food, travel, accomadation and even one year payed by a lecturer.
I wouldnt change the oppertunities I had.
Orkynowot.
May god go with you in all the dark places you must walk.
Diggers Time? - Dave-Bonner - 23rd April 2006
Sorry T.I.M. I kinda got tangled in my own argument - strangled myself in my own cerebral (or not so...) weavings, if you will!
Mr Hosty - Complimentary, but not interchangeable. I think it should be made clearer to students what exactly it is they are embarking on when undertaking a degree, and where it is likely to get them. Might save some time, a lot of money and a promising few careers into the bargain.
Personnally, I believe higher education should be accessible to all (and I doubt anyone disagrees...), however, that is not a requirement for everyone to enter into it. A degree is a requirement for ascending the rungs of the promotional ladder, and quite rightly, because the requirements of a PO, PM or any other situation, as with most "archaeo-scientific" specialists, requires skills which are taught at uni - research based and communication for instance. However, the skills required by diggers are not accrued through 3 or 4 years in lecture theatres, they are gained with experience. The perfectr arena for this is obviously on site, so surely a practically based qualification in cooperation with "the industry" is required.
Sorry Beasley for undermining your thread. You might well have a point. Only time will tell - probably the next slump when everyone says "I remember a few years ago....". Or maybe when they launch "Time Team: The Movie.....Tony Robinson, an intrepid archaeologist....ahem, TV presenter....."
Gizza job!!!!! ....please!!!!!