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+--- Thread: Druids and Avebury Reburial (/showthread.php?tid=1272)
Druids and Avebury Reburial - Dirty Dave Lincoln - 13th February 2009
A lot of people seem to favour the retention of human remains for long term study or even for display in museums, and as such have said so; people have also said their views on folks (like Oddie) claiming responsibility for prehistoric human remains.
But i'm wondering wether these are the right questions we should be asking- surely, before we start debating who has jurisdiction over human remains we should be asking -Do we have the moral right to keep such remains for longer than is necessary? if the only reason graves are being disturbed is because of development,then what right do we have to keep them boxed up or on display solely for the benefit of science.
This could probably be better debated on a whole new topic, my view is that after a reasonable time for research and analysis then all human remains should be re-buried.
Druids and Avebury Reburial - Digitaldigging - 13th February 2009
It's not exactly a spanner but. . .
I'm actually undecided, depending on what day it is. Actual reburial, after some thought on the matter, is perhaps not an ideal way to go.
On the one hand I'd be happy to see a sort of mausoleum setup where boxed skeletons could be stored (with the acknowledgement that this is but a variation on the current storage facilities availabe in most museums).
BUT on other days, I think it's a bloody good idea to have a healthy dose of 'staring death in the face' every now and again to remind us of our mortality and perhaps stimulate us into making the best of what we have. The best way to do that, in my opinion, is to quite literally stare death in the face.
Given that a reductionist approach would have skeletal remains as interesting arrangements of calcium and nothing more, is this whole reburrial issue nothing more than sentimentalism? When sometimes entire ritually interred animals turn up, we don't see the same objections to putting them on display.
Is this mothing more than a variation of the Bambi effect, where we feel mammals are alright, but snakes and invetbrates can go hang?
Druids and Avebury Reburial - Dirty Dave Lincoln - 13th February 2009
Ritually interred animals are ritually interred by Humans-not by animals of the same species.
Druids and Avebury Reburial - Oxbeast - 13th February 2009
From the 'Honouring the Ancient Dead website:
http://www.honour.org.uk/node/281
"In its role as a body representative of the spectrum of Pagan thinking, HAD cannot assert that this particular Request would be supported by all Druids or Pagans. While the majority of responses received from HAD?s council of theologians were in favour of reburial in some form or another, some Pagans on its team of advisors expressed a conviction that remains should remain accessible for scientific research. Furthermore, HAD?s work of talking to and listening to responses within the Pagan community as a whole leads us to be confident in stating a more general Pagan view: human remains of significant cultural, social and scientific value are usually considered too important to rebury, and should be stored with respect for their status as ancestors (not objects), while poorly documented human remains of negligible context should be candidates for reburial. In this respect, some Pagans would support any guidance that encouraged museums, archaeological units and other heritage organisations to store or display the human remains in their care in ways that allowed Pagans access for spiritual communication and communion.
As a result, and on the basis of being a representative voice for British Paganism, HAD cannot therefore fully support CoBDO?s Request for reburial. However, it is noted that CoBDO does not claim to be fully representative. CoBDO is an organisation whose remit is to challenge conventional and complacent thinking from the edge of the Pagan community, rather than to declare themselves a part of the centre ground. Where their views are respected, it is on this basis"
also (and sorry if you feel that this is not anyone's business, Oddie)
"While the Appendix to the Request includes a history of CoBDO, this document omits important details of internal fragmentation: at around the time when the Reburial Committee was established, disagreements split the Council of British Druid Orders into two non-cooperating factions. The Reburial Committee is effectively part of the breakaway faction and not supported by the core extant group. It might be noted, too, that published minutes stating how the Reburial Committee was unanimously voted list the attendance of individuals with no voting rights. While use of the term ?the Council of British Druid Orders? implies a large, representative and functional body, the reality is far from this.
This being said, HAD is concerned about the way in which the DCMS Guidance and the outcome of this consultation is likely to be used. CoBDO?s lack of comprehensive Pagan backing, the fragmented nature of the group itself, and the conflicts provoked by its approach, will weaken the validity of the Request. What HAD does not want to see is the current DCMS Guidance and the result of this Request being used as a justification for museums, archaeologists and other heritage and government bodies believing there is no need to engage ? or no value in engaging - with groups expressing deeply-felt, non-scientific interest in the human remains in their care."
Also,
"In the Request, such words are only used once, yet even here the exact meaning is unclear. In 3.2 of the Draft Report, CoBDO state that ?like all people indigenous to Europe, [they] have a ?close genetic? claim for reburial?.
HAD perceives CoBDO?s Request to have validity only as an expression of special interest, based on sincere and profound religious sensibilities. This interest, however, does not afford a right to authority. What it does justify is a clearly sounded call for such perspectives to be heard."
So, these pagans seem to want to retain the status quo, but with more emphasis on inclusiveness and respect.
Apologies for the long quotes. I've just had a long day smashing tiles off the bathroom wall: great fun for the first half hour, but then you need some general procrastination. Good lurking, Tom.
Druids and Avebury Reburial - tom wilson - 13th February 2009
It's not on the web, but I direct all interested to Kevin Leahey's eloquent description of exhumation as an act of remembrance, in the March/April edition of British Archaeology.
Personally, I always thought that excavating people was one of the morally best things I did in my working life.
freeburmarangers.org
Druids and Avebury Reburial - Digitaldigging - 13th February 2009
"Ritually interred animals are ritually interred by Humans-not by animals of the same species."
Thanks for that Dave. I'll stop wasting my time looking for the lost badger civilisation of the upper Mendips.[:0]
Druids and Avebury Reburial - BAJR Host - 13th February 2009
damn... better rewrite my latest paper!
?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake
Druids and Avebury Reburial - tom wilson - 13th February 2009
The debate over human remains has become polarised between science and sentiment, with caring people with sensibilities taking the moral high ground and attacking the cruel, unfeeling archaeologists. However, the point needs to be made that Druids are not the only people who have feelings for human remains.
Many years ago I was directing the excavation of an Anglo-Saxon cemetery before its destruction by ploughing. We were working on the grave of a child, a little girl, with a brooch and some beads, when one of the team asked me if I thought it was a shame to disturb her. I paused to think. 'No', I told him, 'she has been forgotten for 1,400 years but now she is back with us, we remember her again'.
This spur of the moment thought led me to consider the issue. We don't know much about the religious beliefs of these people, but know that they wanted to be remembered, their stories, mounds and monuments show this. Their families are long gone, taking all memory with them, and we archaeologists, by bringing them back into the world, are perhaps the nearest they have to kin. We care about them, spending our lives trying to turn their bones back into people. We look at the things they made and used, and, by enjoying the things that they enjoyed, human hands and minds touch over the centuries. Their bones give us direct evidence of who they were, where they came from, how they lived and even what they looked like. The more we know the better we can remember them.
Reburying human remains destroys people and casts them into oblivion: this is at best misguided and at worst cruel. Perhaps we archaeologists have been wrong to argue our case purely on scientific grounds and not admit that we, too, care. We must recognise that dead people are still part of the human race and should be cared for and respected.'
Kevin Leahey, in British Archaeology, March/April 2009, p 10
freeburmarangers.org
Druids and Avebury Reburial - Oddie - 14th February 2009
Hi folks.
Again, I stress that Council have never claimed to speak for all Druids or Pagans, and this is made clear in our reburial request. There are many Pagans, Druids and public however who whole heartedly agree with reburial. Neither have we ever spoken of dogma - only spiritual belief and a balanced view. There are many Druids who understand and respect the value of science, but it seems there are few on this blog site who are able or willing to show the same balance of mind.
HAD's references to the reburial committee being a breakaway fraction from the main CoBDO are untrue. Such comments are ill-considered and very unhelpful. Having stated this, we fully support the good work of HAD, especially online surveys showing strong support for reburial.
No evidence exists to demonstrate all ancestors exhumed from consecrated ground were practicing Christians. Council support the law in the way it permits reburial of such exhumations and seek amedments to relevent Acts to be more inclusive. Reburial with continued access at the very least!
References to the peaceful operations were meant to distinguish between the activities of this Council from the Loyal Arthurian Warband and individuals who claim the name of CoBDO who agressively demonstrate against archaeologists excavating (Recent exhumations at Stonehenge) and stab HAD in the back. Black politics I call it. Council simply request more careful thinking and do indeed pursue reburial as the favoured option. We are non-violent, and make no reference ot war and will not do so. Our healing ceremonies at the AKM, Avebury (and Wells Museum) have been peaceful with the full co-operation of museums. This is on going.
In promoting this debate with Druids and public, we have always encouraged respect of both ancestor and archaeologists/curator. Despite what I read on this site, I have met many academics who agree our request is not unreasonable. Perhaps this site is unrepresentative of the wider archaeological community. I can't help thinking that a great chance is being missed here.
Oddie /|\
Oddie
Druids and Avebury Reburial - Arddhu - 14th February 2009
What is vitally being overlooked here IMO is the current gap between the the still predominantly scientific approach of Subject-Object Metaphysics to spiritual matters, and those who intuitively know that our ancestors are still very much an intrinsic part of the land they walked and who we are, and are Not just long buried and forgotten about bones,
unfortunately at this stage in scientific evolution we are unable to fully comprehend this connection, Is this justification for outright ignorance of it, I think not.
Arddhu /|\