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+--- Thread: One Minima to Rule them All (/showthread.php?tid=5397)
One Minima to Rule them All - P Prentice - 2nd March 2016
BAJR Wrote:Not that I like talking about adverts... so lets just say what is a name? I am a grand high poobah... which means nothing... what I actually do is what matters... ( check the what I actually do bit ) I also talked this over... and agreed to the advert... In effect this is a PO job but at another office. and generous is what you take it to mean...
The idea is that by removing constraints and minimum rates ( which people complained about because then everyone went to the minimum rate by default... ) the market place takes over... and it is up to people... yes my lovely BAJRites... that means YOU - to take it or leave it with jobs. the base minimum protects the digger and the rest should be more... ie... if Diggers are on a basic of 17700... a supervisor level post (G4) ( with the actual job description meaning more than the job title) is hardly going to be scrambled over if it is 18000 requiring either hiring a substantially lower grade of person OR upping rates to get a decent G4 Archaeologist ... Of course this does require some degree of help from archaeologists (but then... the minimas were often cited as holding back growth... )
:face-approve: Lets keep discussions generic...
leaving aside how badly such an advert might be written, if it should describe a role of a manager, that the successful applicant will have a strong track record in management and also be a mcifa, how would an advertiser explain why the salary rate would/could start below the cifa recommend rate?
One Minima to Rule them All - BAJR - 2nd March 2016
There was me thinking that I had said...
So to answer the generic question about how an advertiser would explain it... "They would not." :face-approve:
One Minima to Rule them All - Crocodile - 3rd March 2016
BAJR Wrote::face-approve: Lets keep discussions generic...
In what sense? And why?
I seem to recall The Diggers' Forum newsletter taking a positive stance on publicly discussing poor pay on company websites and FB.
So more generally, jobs asking for Cmifa paying below CIFA minimum for that grade. Do the CIFA advertise these jobs? Do companies paying below the minimum have to inform the CIFA? Does it still action an automatic audit?
I'm still concerned that responsibility levels match what a company wants to pay and that the requirements of the job will in reality require a higher level of responsibility and competence. The level of responsibility is not always clear from the job description.
Looking at the average advertised wage for responsibility level 5 and considering 5/6, I can't imagine that these jobs meet CIFA minimum. If they ask for CMIFA competence then they definitely don't.
Will free market forces improve pay?
One Minima to Rule them All - Crocodile - 3rd March 2016
BAJR Wrote:and it is up to people... yes my lovely BAJRites... that means YOU - to take it or leave it with jobs.
I'm not sure i approve of placing the responsibilty with people who need work. Employers who pay crap wages are responsible for crap wages, nobody else.
We are of course responsible for accepting poor pay, just as you are responsible for advertising it.
One Minima to Rule them All - BAJR - 3rd March 2016
Quote:In what sense? And why?Because I am asking
Quote:We are of course responsible for accepting poor pay, just as you are responsible for advertising it.So are you saying that I am knowingly and deliberately advertising poorly paid jobs? and that I don't talk to companies or knock back adverts that I feel are unsuitable?
You can't have it both ways... you either do or no not accept responsibility... I have tried and asked several times for support over the years. Only to be met with quite remarkable silence, except for a few people such as Kevin and Chiz. who get off arses to help. What can I do? I do what I can. And because of it... things have changed.
Quote:Employers who pay crap wages are responsible for crap wages, nobody else.So now you have a platform, and are able to tell me what to do next, as you have thought this through.... tell me what you would do to change this situation. Honestly... if it is practical, I will seriously consider it.
One Minima to Rule them All - P Prentice - 3rd March 2016
there is nothing wrong with advertising poorly paid jobs. the market can work it out if the job and person spec are honest (something you are not likely to know). i would suggest you add a rider on the main jobs page that clears you from the necessity of approving or otherwise.
we all get what we deserve dont we
and thanks for the platform
One Minima to Rule them All - BAJR - 3rd March 2016
Lets accept for the moment that all jobs in archaeology from Top to bottom are "poorly paid" Once we have that concept parked, we can accept that actually it was a lot worse and so could be actually more poorly paid than.
It is why picking on one particular job or company is pointless. as in general... it is the same across the board. oh I know, some companies pay an extra tenner a week here or accommodation there... but basically it is peanuts to the UK average for graduate jobs.
So we do what we can do. and by we... sadly and without any real worth, that means me as BAJR, talking and discussing with companies. earning trust and respect where I can. Of course I should just take all jobs no matter what they pay...let the market decide... but you know what happens then... sad but true, there will always be those that want to take the job... even if it only pays 60 quid and a bag of crisps /... So that leaves me with one option. and I do.
After sixteen years doing this... I am always grateful for any sensible suggestions to look at what to do and how to do it. Indeed, as I said before and PP picked up on, the places that archaeologists can discuss this openly (or anonymously) are here on BAJR or BAJR Facebook -- there is nowhere else like this - built and maintained for free by myself for you ---- I don't even mind being called out or pulled up.... After all who watches what I am up to :p
Fortunately, the benefits of BAJR ( as a group ) are more than most realise... currently there is a guide coming out about GIS basic in archaeology... and a Guide to using UAVs. plus a Guide to dealing with Harassment. THe skills passport is doing well. and I am working with others on the Career Passport as well. The point is - rather than grumble about wages, I created BAJR and used it as a positive force for field archaeologists. rather than come up with ideas about how to record skills... I built the Skills Passport. I am not perfect, but when it comes to carrying through what I say I will... I do... often by myself.
What companies pay is not my responibility, but I have made it my duty to safeguard where possible as best I can. turning down jobs even. So are jobs poorly paid... yes... in general but could be worse. Is it everyones responsibility to sort this out... yes...
One Minima to Rule them All - BAJR - 3rd March 2016
PS Check the Advert text again You may find that the correct wording is now in place. The G levels were correct, the body text had the MCIfA bit when it should have had ACIfA / MCIfA
shows that that mistakes can happen
One Minima to Rule them All - Crocodile - 3rd March 2016
BAJR Wrote:So are you saying that I am knowingly and deliberately advertising poorly paid jobs?
I said that you are responsible for advertising poorly paid jobs in the context of where responsibility lies and for what. You are no more responsible for poor pay than the employees are because they take it through necessity. People need work you advertise it. People need work they take it. Poor pay is down to employers, most archaeology is poorly paid, some more than others.
BAJR Wrote:You can't have it both ways... you either do or no not accept responsibility.
I'm not responsible for poor pay. It's the responsibility of the person who pays. What I do or don't do does not change who is responsible.
BAJR Wrote:I have tried and asked several times for support over the years. Only to be met with quite remarkable silence, except for a few people such as Kevin and Chiz. who get off arses to help. What can I do? I do what I can. And because of it... things have changed.
I don't think that I have made any critism of what you have done. The discussion was about a job, whether the pay matched the level of responsibility, and whether the pay matched the recommended CIfa minimum for the required MCIfa grade. I don't think I ever mentioned that you shouldn't advertise the job, or your own merits.
My contention is that poor pay is not the responsibility of employees. I am responsible for my actions including what jobs I take, just as you are responsible for what jobs you advertise. Both these things will have an effect but that does not change who is responsible.
One Minima to Rule them All - P Prentice - 3rd March 2016
it is a curious thing, our industry has a market bubble to exploit and many of us are finally able to reward our employees for staying with us through the hard years, yet, some of us only see an opportunity for increased market share through satellite offices with depressed wages. let's hope that it will soon be far less easy to exploit early and mid-career archaeologists because offers will be predicated on generosity rather than insecurity
i really hope nobody with genuine skills takes that job because more are coming