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Druids and Avebury Reburial - User - 15th February 2009
I have watched the debate here, as elsewhere and feel compelled to submit the following.
The Council initially entered into this dialogue with the museums,Heritage and Trust,in order to debate and secure respectful treatment for our ancient remains and inline with other groups, cultures and beliefs. It is an issue of morality and ethics among other things. The Council has at no stage 'forced' or 'demanded' anyone, or any organization to do anything. It is simply a process that has to be gone through. The issue has not been about 'claiming' remains either for ourselves or anyone else, other than the nation itself. The reason the Council has put this before the public is because it is an issue for all and not any one group or path. That is to say, that the whole issue has now been presented to the public, for the sole purpose of open debate, as would have happened regardless at some stage.
Oddie, along with others, including myself, spent an inordinate amount of time, consulting pagan groups, archaeologists and theologists etc, before going forward with this issue and common concensus was, that open debate was needed above all things.
This forum appears to be losing sight of the main issue as it slides into personal issues regarding individual beliefs and comments and not least the inordinate amount of misinformation currently abounding. Much of this has been malicious and from a tiny handful of individuals, some of whom were responsible for the Stonehenge debacle, where a self appointed spokesperson for the whole pagan community,demanded "no archaeology"! This group and elements of, have at times assumed the identity of the Council, for their own ends, which appear to be professional self publicism. I would tentatively suggest, it may be better for folk to put their energies into the consultation itself.
Much has been done by the press to upset the process with their inflammatory terminology and i'm sure those here are under no illusion as to what agenda the press have.
The process is also being side tracked by rather contradictory statements from other interested groups who change their stance regularly and in accordance it seems, with what is happening that particular week.
Thus far and to date, we have been accused amongst other things, of being 'extremists' and 'militant'. I have no knowledge of anything of this nature within the Council and both Heritage and Trust have commended the thoroughness and professionalism of the talks over the last two and a half years.
Oxbeast...Are you a HAD rep and/or do you speak for either HAD or Emma? Are you a member of the Council? Are you sure your assertions have any factual basis?
The Council itself and contradictory to suggestions from Emma and other sources, is a functioning and constitutional body engaged in many other issues including an international tree programme and a project headed by our marine science dept, to draw attention to the wider environmental issues that are not currently in the full public eye. There are not two Councils, there were never two Councils and i reiterate that certain individuals adopt our identity from time to time and as suits. I would also state that other organizations really need to address their factual inaccuracies before going public with them. I would also say that if Emma, HAD or indeed anyone else feels that we are 'militant' or 'extreme' that they will from now on be asked to supply the names of the accused. I would like to think that these references are not being applied to the Council as it stands at this moment in time and may refer to past events which oddly enough, are related to those now shouting and banner waving at such high profile sites such as Stonehenge. Again, please ensure informations given out are in fact correct and not part of the whispering campaign.
For the academics among you, it may be worth noting that a very high profile academic fully supports the real extremists and their behaviours. Why, we don't know, but once again this has the effect of both empowering them and encouraging them.
In summary...
It was always a foregone conclusion that whoever brought the reburial issue to the forefront, would also have to accept the associated problems and attacks by certain individuals.
Again, as elsewhere, i call for moderation,calm and focus on the issue itself. It is up for PUBLIC consultation! This means YOU!
I remain open to attack on all fronts.
Thank you for taking the care to read and hopefully digest this post.
User,
Reburial committee,
Council of British Druid Orders.
Druids and Avebury Reburial - BAJR Host - 15th February 2009
Quote:quote:Oddie, along with others, including myself, spent an inordinate amount of time, consulting pagan groups, archaeologists and theologists etc, before going forward with this issue and common concensus was, that open debate was needed above all things.
any archaeologists we might know?
The question remains, the Druids (whoever group) want reburial of ancestors? am I right? as it is disrespectful to them to display bones.. ? could you reiterate and simplfy for us the situation.
?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake
Druids and Avebury Reburial - Oddie - 15th February 2009
Buried with meaning and blessed with love, the bodies of our ancestors help make sacred this Earth. In return, our Earth gives Her spirit to the ancestor. Ancestor and Landscape become one.
As pilgrims, we enter into the ancestral landscape and call to and honour our ancestors, and when they answer, they come with the spirit of the land into which they were placed - the womb of the Goddess from which we are all reborn. It's time to remember who we are folks.
Academic sarcasm serves no true scientist, archaeologist, curator and no true Druid.
William Blake was a fonding Druid of the poor man's masons /|\
Oddie
Druids and Avebury Reburial - BAJR Host - 15th February 2009
As a matter of interest, the display of human remains as an act of respect, then burial - that happened back then.. archaeology shows it..
To be honest, we will never know the ceremonies and actual spiritual beleifs, we can only make educated guesses.. I am no academic.. I do feel the moral duty of excavation.. but (and a big but) I don't pretend to know what they felt or thought.
Remember your belief is yours... not the neolithic persons or romans
I can easily honour my past and study/learn at the same time.. perhaps thats what is wanted.
?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake
Druids and Avebury Reburial - BAJR Host - 15th February 2009
ps... Digitl diging made a valid point... 99%
?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake
Druids and Avebury Reburial - Digitaldigging - 15th February 2009
To the various 'druid' posters. . .
Will you be pressing for the reburial of the Barbary ape skull found at Navan in Ireland? The leg bone of heidelbergensis at Boxgrove? The possible neanderthalensis remains at Pontnewydd?
Or can I assume that by 'ancestor' you refer only to sapiens sapiens, and not to the wider ape family?
When you speak of beliefs being respected are you talking about mine or yours? I'm afraid they're incompatable, so one of us is going to have to be disrespected.
I don't believe in reincarnation or the spirit - I believe in recycling of materials and energy - what use would a second hand human consciousness be to a tree or a nematode? Nature doesn't work like that.
Re-incarnation is, like most mainstream religion, merely a mechanism for elevating mankind above the system of things - dungeons and dragons by any other name. My first stop to see if any philosophy merits further consideration is to look at the chaps at the top - if the main one is wearing a silly hat, then it's just another gang.
And before anyone accuses me of living in a barren, dry universe of my own making, I think this is a wonderful place, full of magic, without having to invoke some special position for myself. If you want to see something mysterious and wonderful,look to yeast. It can change sugar into alcohol. Now that's magic.
As for re-burial, how about laying off the Neolithic/Bronze age for a moment, and inquiring after the Alder Hay remains - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1136723.stm
You stand a much better chance of locating remains and finding out the spiritual beliefs of the deceased here. Once you've built up a bit of credibility perhaps then you can start working back?
Druids and Avebury Reburial - Arddhu - 15th February 2009
Quote:quote:Originally posted by Digitaldigging
To the various 'druid' posters. . .
Will you be pressing for the reburial of the Barbary ape skull found at Navan in Ireland? The leg bone of heidelbergensis at Boxgrove? The possible neanderthalensis remains at Pontnewydd?
Or can I assume that by 'ancestor' you refer only to sapiens sapiens, and not to the wider ape family?
I am not familiar with the Irish ancestors, that is apart from the appalling destruction of the Tara Vally Burial sites in the name of "progress"! And as far as I'm aware, as i do not speak for the initiating committee directly, It will be considered on a case by case basis, depending on whether there was reverence placed on the burial of the individual,
Quote:quote:Originally posted by Digitaldigging
When you speak of beliefs being respected are you talking about mine or yours? I'm afraid they're incompatable, so one of us is going to have to be disrespected.
I don't believe in reincarnation or the spirit - I believe in recycling of materials and energy - what use would a second hand human consciousness be to a tree or a nematode? Nature doesn't work like that.
Re-incarnation is, like most mainstream religion, merely a mechanism for elevating mankind above the system of things - dungeons and dragons by any other name. My first stop to see if any philosophy merits further consideration is to look at the chaps at the top - if the main one is wearing a silly hat, then it's just another gang.
And before anyone accuses me of living in a barren, dry universe of my own making, I think this is a wonderful place, full of magic, without having to invoke some special position for myself. If you want to see something mysterious and wonderful,look to yeast. It can change sugar into alcohol. Now that's magic.
As I have said above we are all entitled to our opinions however righteous they may be! unless you have the science to categorically dismiss the existence of "spirit" and afterlife, I would not be so dismissive to the infinite number of people who DO believe in it in one form or another throughout the world.
Quote:quote:Originally posted by Digitaldigging
As for re-burial, how about laying off the Neolithic/Bronze age for a moment, and inquiring after the Alder Hay remains - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1136723.stm
You stand a much better chance of locating remains and finding out the spiritual beliefs of the deceased here. Once you've built up a bit of credibility perhaps then you can start working back?
We do not want or need to find out the spiritual beliefs of the person through what evidence they have left, many of us are naturally attuned to them through intuitive instinct, like certain animals intuitively know the exact place and direction to migrate to for example, which has for many been lost and suppressed through indoctrination and oppression of our native forms of spirituality, through shamanic trance and vision we are able to attune ourselves once more with the ancestors from whatever period they may be from.
Druids and Avebury Reburial - Digitaldigging - 16th February 2009
Thanks Arddu - you just said it all.
Druids and Avebury Reburial - Oxbeast - 17th February 2009
Hello all,
Apologies if I somewhat diverted this thread by posting quotes from a website which describe other Pagan approaches. I am not overly concerned with the divisions, I was trying to draw attention of some of the problems inherent in this consultation. There is no group which represents all the strands of opinion among Pagans, just as there is not one among archaeologists.
If pagan group A favours retention and study of human material, pagan group B favours reburial, pagan group C favours no excavation at all and pagan group D is against the idea of the academic study of the past; what mechanism can be used to choose between them? We cannot respect everyone's spiritual beliefs as they are conflicting. We cannot assess how closely one group's ritual is paralelled in the past, as the origin of knowledge of this ritual is supernatural.
"Despite what I read on this site, I have met many academics who agree our request is not unreasonable. Perhaps this site is unrepresentative of the wider archaeological community. I can't help thinking that a great chance is being missed here."
I'm sure that there are a number of symphathetic academics, I have been taught be one or two in the past. I do think that this site is representative of the wider archaeological community; meaning not academics. Probably particularly Kevin Leahy's letter, Steven's posts and our host's 'atoms and dust' metaphysics. I feel that it is a mistake for a society to allow spiritual beliefs, however sincerely held, to be privilidged over the advancement of scientific knowledge and ultimately the advancement of knowledge about the human condition.
Druids and Avebury Reburial - Bier Keller - 17th February 2009
Perhaps some non-Pagan archaeologists should go along to one of the major festivals and tell Druid folk how to run their rituals...what is good for the goose is good for the gander
Beer is your friend