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General Rant! - Land-Escapist - 4th July 2011
With regards to work experience and degrees, Bradford University is one of the few that seem to do it and they offer a wide choice including ones based at the dept, HERs, commercial units and museums. I did my undergrad at Birmingham and did three weeks experience and that was sufficient in terms of the degree. However I did combined Ancient History and Archaeology, just archaeology students had to dig every year (I think) and I joined them after deciding that ancient history was just a minor component of what I wanted to do.
Did an MA and now I'm about to finish my PhD and wade into the scary world of work. I know for a fact that I still don't have enough to continue in academia plus I don't really like where it is going at the moment. At the same time, I still don't feel qualified enough to enter commercial archaeology! Who do I blame? I keep blaming myself mainly because I had blinkers on and was hoping to get a job fairly easily once I finished University. I never really set out to do a PhD its just that it came up at the time, as an advertised job, when the economy was going down the tube and I think it was the right thing to do and I feel extremely privileged to have done this. I'm doing a collaborative doctoral PhD on an archive project so admittedly, I have had very little practical experience since doing it but my AutoCAD, GIS, stratigraphy skills have improved second to none. And I have had experience in working with a heritage body for three months as well, which has also been brilliant
I'm searching the jobs market and finding a lot of the commercial units are searching for people with a minimum 3-6 months commercial experience. I want to work in this sector, mainly because I see it as something I could do for a couple of years and making sure I am not completely ignorant of this sector. But I also despair that I might not be given the chance because I don't have the experience. There is a certain amount of experience you can gain at University and I agree that they should not be churning out diggers, I fully expect to learn on the job and be given the chance to keep up! At the same time, I can understand why in this market units can be picky. And I haven't actually applied for anything yet so I am probably jumping the gun. But it is putting people off and I worry that this will have a knock on effect on archaeology students in universities.
Just sharing the story of my experience so far! If it all goes completely wrong, I have my sewing machine and crochet hooks primed and ready...
General Rant! - Marcus Brody - 4th July 2011
Land-Escapist Wrote:I want to work in this sector, mainly because I see it as something I could do for a couple of years and making sure I am not completely ignorant of this sector.
What would you see yourself doing in the longer term? You said that you didn't see yourself staying in academia, and you don't see the commercial sector as a viable career path for more than a couple of years, so what sort of jobs would you ideally be looking for? As you say, it's difficult to get commercial experience at the moment, with the units being able to pick and choose between several candidates for each job. There's a risk that you may be seen as overqualified for a digging job, on the assumption that you'll be off at the first offer of an academic position.
I don't mean to be negative or dismissive, I'm just curious as to what you see yourself doing for the next 30-40 years of your life. I'd advise anyone thinking of undertaking an MA or PhD to think about the sort of job you want to have before you start, and ask yourself whether that additional qualification is necessary to getting it, or whether you'll find yourself at the end of the course more deeply in debt but no closer to getting the job you want.
General Rant! - edwardajames - 4th July 2011
I have a certain amount of empathy with a number of people in this thread. I am currently unemployed and living at home, attempting desperately to gain some experience through voluntary work. Luckily, I am not a 'digger' archaeologist, but intend to specialise into the built heritage side of things a little more, building on a recent MA from York. The general feeling I get is that this side of things is in slightly better shape in terms of future prospects. Even so experience is still the key, and it's unbelievably frustrating that companies are less willing to take on the younger, more enthusiastic people out here who perhaps could do with a bit of training. But, I will persevere. I'm sure something will come up. :face-approve:
*sits down and writes an application*
General Rant! - Land-Escapist - 5th July 2011
Marcus Brody Wrote:What would you see yourself doing in the longer term? You said that you didn't see yourself staying in academia, and you don't see the commercial sector as a viable career path for more than a couple of years, so what sort of jobs would you ideally be looking for? As you say, it's difficult to get commercial experience at the moment, with the units being able to pick and choose between several candidates for each job. There's a risk that you may be seen as overqualified for a digging job, on the assumption that you'll be off at the first offer of an academic position.
I don't mean to be negative or dismissive, I'm just curious as to what you see yourself doing for the next 30-40 years of your life. I'd advise anyone thinking of undertaking an MA or PhD to think about the sort of job you want to have before you start, and ask yourself whether that additional qualification is necessary to getting it, or whether you'll find yourself at the end of the course more deeply in debt but no closer to getting the job you want.
I'd like to come back to academia, after some more experience in the commercial/heritage sector. I've dabbled in several things and I really like working with the public on history/heritage/archaeology related matters and have tried to apply for jobs along those lines but alas to no success. When I started the PhD I was sure I wanted to do academia and I still do, but maybe do academia in 5-10 years time when hopefully have some publications under my belt and more digging experience.
General Rant! - kevin wooldridge - 5th July 2011
Noble ambition, but is it possible these days to 'leave' archaeological academia for 5-10 years and still expect that there will be any kind of post or course to come back to. Not so sure that is in all honesty a practical manner in which to achieve career stability. Surely all you will end up doing is putting 5-10 years worth of younger, possibly more talented, individuals between yourself and nirvana?
I think a more realistic approach would be, as Marcus suggests, to give serious consideration to how you think the overall archaeological job market will look in 5-10 years time and plan now for that eventuality. Myself I think that a contraction in the archaeological employment sector will result in academic inflation (i.e a higher level of qualification will be required for many posts), irrespective of whether the requirements of the post warrants the degree of qualification. That is already happening in many parts of Europe where a basic Batchelor degree will not on its own get you even on the first rung of archaeological employment. I know it's not the easiest route to tread, but I think these days a little bit of forward planning might at least temper future disappointments. (This equally applies to archaeologists currently in work as it does to those studying or seeking work).
Maybe I should start a new thread on that subject....???
General Rant! - Doug - 10th July 2011
Land-Escapist Wrote:I'd like to come back to academia, after some more experience in the commercial/heritage sector. I've dabbled in several things and I really like working with the public on history/heritage/archaeology related matters and have tried to apply for jobs along those lines but alas to no success. When I started the PhD I was sure I wanted to do academia and I still do, but maybe do academia in 5-10 years time when hopefully have some publications under my belt and more digging experience.
Hi Land-Escapist
Not to discourage your dreams but you may want to talk to some academics about this sort of route. The only archaeologists I know of who have been able to do something like that were those in University Commercial units. Mainly because a lot of them (units) got set up in the late 70's, 80's and early 90's and their employees were members of the university. Only in the 90's and recently when the units separated from the university were they able to stay with the Uni, because they were still uni employees, and go into academics.
My impression is that if you don't land an academic job right after your PhD or 1st postdoc its game over
. At least for any permanent positions, you might be able to string together a constant string of postdocs or temp teaching or temp research jobs but that is it.
General Rant! - kevin wooldridge - 11th July 2011
Doug Wrote:At least for any permanent positions, you might be able to string together a constant string of postdocs or temp teaching or temp research jobs but that is it.
Short term contracts I suugest have become an ingrained part of the archaeological (as well as academic) employment practice in the UK. And that doesn't look like changing in the near future. New graduates should consider whether the possibility of almost permanent work but on a series of contracts and for a number of employers might be the more likely reality, rather than always aspiring towards a permanent post for a single employer....
General Rant! - archie - 11th July 2011
I think Kevin's is a fair estimate. Essentially there aren't a huge amount of companies who are handing out full time positions in any profession right now, everyone is hedging your bets, however, I think this is more connected to the economic crisis than archaeology in particular. While the archaeolgical profession has always been an area where short term contracts apply, this is only viable when the jobs on offer are signifcantly smaller than the people to fill them (like now). Also I've been under the impression that academic post-doc postions have always been only as long as the research project they have been working on and don't necessarily think that you have 'one strike and your out' as far as trying to get a position in the first place. As far as I'm concerned as long as your persistent, keep learning, add to your skill set, show you have an interest in archaeology apart from monetarily (which shouldn't be hard as the pay is rubbish) then you have as good a chance as anyone else.
General Rant! - Marcus Brody - 11th July 2011
kevin wooldridge Wrote:Noble ambition, but is it possible these days to 'leave' archaeological academia for 5-10 years and still expect that there will be any kind of post or course to come back to. Not so sure that is in all honesty a practical manner in which to achieve career stability. Surely all you will end up doing is putting 5-10 years worth of younger, possibly more talented, individuals between yourself and nirvana?
I agree with Kevin. If you see yourself working in academia, I'd focus on that. The only person from my class at university who now works as a lecturer was the one who went straight into her PhD, and had a clear idea of what she wanted to do when she completed it. I still occasionally harbour thoughts of going back to university to do a PhD, but realistically, it's never gonna happen as I'd never be able to get the funds together, or live for however long it took to complete it without wages coming in.
General Rant! - Odinn - 11th July 2011
Marcus Brody Wrote:I still occasionally harbour thoughts of going back to university to do a PhD, but realistically, it's never gonna happen as I'd never be able to get the funds together, or live for however long it took to complete it without wages coming in.You can always do it part-time while working. It's hard work but worth it if you really love your subject matter. Just don't expect to have a social life while doing it!