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+--- Thread: How should British Archaeology be run (/showthread.php?tid=4559)
How should British Archaeology be run - david.petts - 31st August 2012
"]Just out of perverse interest would you employ your students in your wonderous unit?"
Don't have a unit
"Or rather how many jobs a year have you got?"
Dunno
"Or what do you think that you teacher them that makes me want to make them my pet?"
??
"The truth is that all you humanity teachers arnt capable or even qualified enough to teach a single science A level on what grounds do you think that you should be let loose anywhere near a BSc student.
Go drink some hemlock"
I'm still chuckling over "humanity twats" -its funny because its true AND you used a rude word
You're right, its more of a Bill Hicks thing you've got going on isn't it - taking down the "man" with a well aimed profanity- quake ye mighty and despair
How should British Archaeology be run - Unitof1 - 31st August 2012
It was always going to end this way. You keep your job.
H ave you ever considered being a curator? It's all about humanity. It would be nice to be taking down the "man" but then theres you. Hoo "what should we be teaching" oho
How should British Archaeology be run - gwyl - 2nd September 2012
Unitof1 Wrote:Just out of perverse interest would you employ your students in your wonderous unit?
Or rather how many jobs a year have you got?
Or what do you think that you teacher them that makes me want to make them my pet?
The truth is that all you humanity teachers arnt capable or even qualified enough to teach a single science A level on what grounds do you think that you should be let loose anywhere near a BSc student.
Go drink some hemlock.
It was always going to end this way. You keep your job.
H ave you ever considered being a curator? It's all about humanity. It would be nice to be taking down the "man" but then theres you. Hoo "what should we be teaching" oho
stop being a xxxx and answer some of the questions asked of you for your solutions instead of snarking and trolling. i know it's the easier option, but if you're gonna to question other people's adult solutions, stop acting like you're 17 and on your first forum. you know it's not; we know it's not. just xxxxxx grow a pair and propose some clear solutions in English and not Uo1. i'd love to hear you express yourself coherently instead in Joycean English - i read that for other reasons, largely to do with escaping archaeology, and you're ruining it for me...
How should British Archaeology be run - kevin wooldridge - 2nd September 2012
My favourite Irish joke....Difference between a girder and a joist? Girder wrote Faust and Joist wrote Ulysses!!
How should British Archaeology be run - RedEarth - 2nd September 2012
david.petts Wrote:"
I'm still chuckling over "humanity twats" -its funny because its true AND you used a rude word
You're right, its more of a Bill Hicks thing you've got going on isn't it - taking down the "man" with a well aimed profanity- quake ye mighty and despair
'Humanity twats' is quite funny, as are rude words.
That's quite offensive to Bill Hicks, at least you could understand what he was on about.
What I'm saying is, best not to engage Unit in direct conversation when he's on one! I have often found a element of truth in what he says, but usually several months after having read it.
How should British Archaeology be run - david.petts - 2nd September 2012
anyhoo, troll hopefully back under the bridge, so back to the thread
Let's get back to first principals, before we think about *who* should teach field archaeology, let's think best about *how* it is best taught.
The basic technical processes (drawing a section; planning; taking a level) aren't terribly complicated and are pretty easily taught, but I think we can agree that these basic skills are only part of the process of becoming a proficient excavator. So much of being a good digger comes from experience (gained in a range of conditions, types of sites, types of archaeology; types of features etc) - these can only be gained by ample time on site, perhaps a minimum of six months.
Now, whether one thinks universities *should* be at the forefront of teaching field archaeology, it is very difficult to think of a way in which six months of excavation could be structured into a 3-year degree course - it would involve two months of fieldwork every year - given that most students now need to work during vacations, this would need to be fitted into term time (ie more or less a term a year). Now that sounds great - a term ever year digging! However, as we all know, digging costs money- the current level of funding for students simply couldn't fund this. There are also the inevitable boring but relevant bureaucratic issues - universities degree courses need to the conform the various benchmarks (http://www.qaa.ac.uk/Publications/InformationAndGuidance/Pages/Subject-benchmark-statement-Archaeology.aspx) - I'm not sure that a course with a 6 months field requirement within the 3 year structure would necessarily meet these criteria.
The alternative way to structure it might be to go for the industrial placement (ie four year sandwich course). In the ideal world I think is probably the best model, BUT, it relies on being able to guarantee such a placement for each student you give a place on such a course. Now in the current climate, it would be extremely difficult to do this. To put it into context, we require our students to get three weeks experience in their second year long vacation - this year, I had three cases where students had placements sorted out only to have them pulled at the last minute when, in two cases, the museum shut down due to council cuts and in once case, the commercial unit they were planning to work with went bust. Now imagine trying to ensure people can get a solid 12 month placement in such an environment. Industrial placements may work in subjects like chemistry and engineering where the commercial sector is much larger, but very difficult in the heritage sector in the current economic climate.
As I noted in an earlier post, one of the other big problems is who should actually be the trainers of fieldwork (at an individual level) - I would be the first to say, that academics are not the best people to provide field training- it should be done by people who actually spend most of their time workingin the field. Although there are departments with Field Units, they are decreasing for a range of reasons (with GUARD and ARCUS going in the last couple of years).
So, to summarise-like it or not, as it stands, it is very difficult to provide long-periods of field training within the confines of an UG degree - it is possible to introduce people to the basic concepts and skills, but to become properly proficient requires lots of experience. Placements *might* work, but are difficult to arrange. In an ideal world field training should be provided by professional field workers, but there are few of those working in HE.
I think pragmatically, partnerships between universities and commercial units might be one way forward (I was actually listening to a presentation today about a site being dug jointly by UCLAN and OA East), but I'm not sure there are enough commercial units with capacity for such collaborations to work with all existing Depts of Archaeology (although I suspect that over the next few years we may see some Departments going to the wall).
How should British Archaeology be run - kevin wooldridge - 3rd September 2012
david.petts Wrote:I think pragmatically, partnerships between universities and commercial units might be one way forward (I was actually listening to a presentation today about a site being dug jointly by UCLAN and OA East), but I'm not sure there are enough commercial units with capacity for such collaborations to work with all existing Depts of Archaeology (although I suspect that over the next few years we may see some Departments going to the wall).
It does seem to me that both universities and commercial units are missing a trick here.....surely if there is a demand for undergraduates and fresh graduates to receive training prior to embarking on archaeological careers, it shouldn't be impossible to arrange a field school specifically for that purpose...perhaps running from June until September each year. Students would of course have to pay or take out a training loan, but some elements of the course might attract sponsorship and could even qualify under various Work Start type initiatives. I can see advantages both for students and employers in having high quality training of this sort and it could incorporate attaining CSCS cards, first aid training and even elements of a NVQ course or the IfA bursary for field skills training etc etc. Perhaps something like the recent Flag Fen initiative might form a basis for such a school ...
....just as an aside. Here in Norway there is no requirement for undergraduates to take a field work component. Fieldwork training is a part of Masters courses...however it is not easy to get a job in archaeology on the basis of an undergraduate degree alone. In that sense the field training recognises that the Masters component of university education is the most appropriate level for those intending to take archaeology as a career, rather than as part of a 'generalist' first degree....
How should British Archaeology be run - BAJR - 3rd September 2012
I will be keeping a closer eye on this... a s I go off to dig and Uo1 comes and sprays on the walls!
Anyway.
Quote:with the help of supportive supervisors and asking other diggers.
I think this is another important aspect. that David highlights. I too hit commercial archaeology face down... a 17 year old in York... with plenty of society and even a Uni dig behind him... but not much else. ( oh yes... cock sure arrogance!)
but... we did buddy, we did take time, we (as the field staff saw it as important to spend 20 minutes explaining how to do levels fast... or how to string a section so it was always horizontal. as this would in the long term ( yes the LONG TERM!!) save time down teh line.
Now, I note either such small crews that learning is impossible.. or two graduates being put out to a job... nice one! OR the Project officer striding about asking why you are wasting time... just get it done... don't bother training... get digging.
once more - we need to get companies to accept training as fundamental to their own health. otherwise they are standing on the oxygen skills pipe of future fieldstaff, which ultimately results in self asphyxiation
How should British Archaeology be run - Wax - 3rd September 2012
Train the trainers!!!!!! I have never got my head round the fact that those who teach under graduates ( and post grads) do not have professional teaching qualifications. How the hell does that work? Teaching is a skill that needs to be taught to those who provide training. Cost effective in the long run as those being trained might actually learn some thing.
How should British Archaeology be run - Potgeek - 3rd September 2012
Hello. I for one would hate to see students pay yet more money for totrain to get a foot into commercial archaeology. Haven’t they already accruedenough debt by simply going to university and getting the degree which is now demandedof them? I would be very sad to see thegoal posts moved even further by the profession. Ok yes, you don’t leave university with all the excavationsskills required to be a well-oiled site assistant on day one. No one does, andno one ever did for that matter. We all learnt stuff on the job, mainly by gettingit wrong at first. ‘Green and keen’ is how most of us started. With a littlehelp and encouragement - which doesn’t break the budget – new folk come up toscratch in no time? If anything, it’s those who’ve been on site for 2 to 3years + and haven’t seen ‘promotion’ who get disgruntled, and sometimes don’tpull their weight. They’re the ones who let the side down. Degree coursesshould certainly not narrow their focus by giving more time to fieldwork skills– why should they?