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+--- Thread: APPAG and all that.....do what???? (/showthread.php?tid=2109)
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APPAG and all that.....do what???? - Troll - 3rd January 2006
Ok.We now know that archaeology is the lowest paid job that a British graduate can enter.We also know that APPAG recommended that archaeology graduates should start on a similar wage to those in similar professions-architects etc.The Figure they suggested was around the ?20 pa mark. In order to maintain an experienced and professional workforce and more importantly, stem the exodus of extremely talented and experienced professional archaeologists-lets show anyone who`s watching just how bad/offensive/contrived the current state of play is.Seeing as APPAG have done nothing since their last statement and, the IFA expect us all to celebrate their new pay scales (whoopee) that completely ignore those recommendations, this thread is all about scanning your local papers/jobcentres etc and posting here advertised pay scales for jobs that are advertised at greater rates than our own.For example, secretarys that process our wages are earning more than we do.Toilet cleaners and car park attendants earn more than we do. Library assistants, Waitrose shelf stackers, cheese graters in warehouses......
..knowledge without action is insanity and action without knowledge is vanity..(imam ghazali,ayyuhal-walad)
APPAG and all that.....do what???? - troll - 3rd January 2006
Warehouse op-Leicester-?292 a week
HGV driver-Nottingham-?11 per hour
Forflift op-Ashford-?7.80 per hour
Solderers-Birmingham-?7.70 per hour
Warehouse op-Manchester-?8.60 per hour
Drayman ?76 per day
Caretaker/cleaner-?10 per hour-London
Housekeeper-?14,865-Ipswich
Industrial cleaner-?11 per hour
School cook-?16000 pa + benefits
Junior project planner with any degree-?25-28k pa London
Construction sales assistant-?25-41k pa-London
McDonalds retail manager-any degree welcome-?17-20,000k pa to start
Traffic Warden-GCSE English-up to ?17,000 pa nationwide
..knowledge without action is insanity and action without knowledge is vanity..(imam ghazali,ayyuhal-walad)
APPAG and all that.....do what???? - the invisible man - 3rd January 2006
It is highly unlikely that an architecture graduate can walk into a 20k job. Firstly, a first degree does not qualify you as an architect, there is a year out to do, then back for another two years full time uni, then you have to do "Part 3" while working, with evening classes, sit an exam and an interview, all taking another year, then you're there. You still may not walk into a 20k job, despite having two years work experience and 5 years full time ed. It will depend on where you are, what field you are in, and most of all market forces at the time.
The point is, it is very difficult to be sure that you are comparing like for like unless you are familiar with the professions and industries concerned. I would also hesitate to base a claim for a cerian wage on the grounds that other occupations are somehow inferior. I would not have a clue how to drive a forklift truck, for example, and would not begrudge a decent wage to either a caretaker or cleaner (completely different things BTW). Toilet cleaning is an occupation that few would care to pursue, I hazard.
I don't really see how any committee or whatever declaring that an occupation "should" command a given salary is going to achieve anything. If you're an employer you're going to pay the rate necessary to secure the staff that you need. If you can get people to work for 200 quid a week, then that is what you'll pay. If you offer 400 quid because you're a nice perosn, you won't win any tenders and no-one will get paid.
Please excuse the absurdly simplistic economic model, but that in a nutshell is what it's all about. Now, what we do about it, and I fully agree that something needs to be done, is the tricky bit and I regret that I have nothing to suggest. Are there any unit managers or senoir manager type bods out there who actually pay the wages and thus in reality set the rates, who could chip in an opinion, one way or another? Best of all, can one or more have a say at the conference? Dialogue is better than monologue! (unless you're a Danish prince).
We owe the dead nothing but the truth.
APPAG and all that.....do what???? - troll - 3rd January 2006
Gday. The architect analogy was set by APPAG.I too don`t begrudge others a decent wage and will admit that I`ve done my fair share of labouring and toilet cleaning.The point that I am trying to make here is that;
1. Archaeology in the UK has its "value" set by commercial restraints
2. Archaeologists are valued in some cases less than toilet cleaners and labourers
3. Unit managers must realise that their wage levels attract mostly inexperienced personnel-and are quite happy to do so
4. The ridiculous wages drive out qualified and experienced personnel and as a by-product-this ensures a largely inexperienced workforce and, that supervisory/managerial staff are taken from this very pool.
The pay scales also don`t reward an archaeologist for holding a degree in their subject either.In fact, the scales uphold the antiquarian view that field archaeologists are simply labourers.If those that set standards and those who set pay scales are not remotely interested in a qualified workforce-they should simply say so.Openly.
..knowledge without action is insanity and action without knowledge is vanity..(imam ghazali,ayyuhal-walad)
APPAG and all that.....do what???? - the invisible man - 3rd January 2006
Aha, yes. Points 1 and 2 - quite, "value" here being monetary value.
3 and particularly 4, I guess this phenomenom is not peculiar to archaeology. It seems a strange quirk of nature that the better someone is at what they do, the quicker they are promoted out of it! To some extent this was recognised with teaching, I believe, where instead of promoting the best teachers to headships and whatnot, a scheme was introduced to reward experienced teachers for staying at the coalface (well, blackboard, or interactive board, whatever!)
I suppose the ideal might be to have a recognised, well-rewarded, experienced, capable supervisor level, to work with and pass on the benefit of their knowledge to the newer people "under" them, instead of letting them drift away - but a decent proportion of say 1 to 6? Keep an eye on the archaeology too.
We owe the dead nothing but the truth.
APPAG and all that.....do what???? - troll - 3rd January 2006
Howz about a capable, experienced, well-rewarded and recognised workforce from which-supervisors are taken?
Oh, and "value" relates to ethically as well as monetary.Units seem to value the finite resource in the same light as they value their staff.......knowledge without action is insanity and action without knowledge is vanity..(imam ghazali,ayyuhal-walad)
APPAG and all that.....do what???? - 1man1desk - 3rd January 2006
From asking around the office, I gather that last year's crop of graduate civil engineers would expect to start on ?18-20K, and a graduate ecologist on around ?16K. These are consultancy salaries though, and we start our graduate archaeologists within that range. I don't know how these salaries would compare with contracting civil engineers.
I know that APPAG made the comparison with architects, but that doesn't mean that it is a valid one. I have a lot of architects in my family, and I would say that my sister was a lot better trained/qualified/experienced when she qualified than I was. A qualified architect is probably more equivalent to an archaeologist with an MA in a specialist area and two years experience on top of their first degree, and if we are going to compare we should do so at that level.
An architect with a first degree only cannot even call themself an 'architect'.
1man1desk
to let, fully furnished
APPAG and all that.....do what???? - deepdigger - 3rd January 2006
Quite right but, as Troll says, an archaeologist even with a degree and an MA and two years experience cannot earn 18-20k!
deep
APPAG and all that.....do what???? - amber - 3rd January 2006
Simply having a degree, doesn't automatically entitle you to a certain wage. The starting wages in archaeology aren't all that bad, for example, the minum salery for a trainee solicitor (by which time you know as much about law, as a newly qualified arch grad knows about archaeology) is only 14,720 gross. It's even less for barristers.
What's wrong with archaeology, is that you start at the starting wage, and stay there. With little financial recognition for experiance, unless you want to get promoted up and away from the archaeology.
I did hear that MOLAS had some kind of system where diggers with 15 years experiance were on something like 20k, may be wrong on that though.
JMHO.
APPAG and all that.....do what???? - mercenary - 3rd January 2006
They did, realized their mistake, and got rid of it. Only those who were there when the wage structure was in place still get the benefit of it. But this may have changed by now, it's been a few years...
I've just realized that the mythical amount these people were getting has not changed since I first heard the story 8 years ago. The rest of archaeology is catching them up pretty quickly if recent BAJR job ads are anything to go by.
I agree that the starting archaeology wage is pretty good. But it then doesn't go anywhere. I'm very lucky in that I get above inflation rises each year.