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+--- Thread: Pay and Conditions (/showthread.php?tid=2390)
Pay and Conditions - monty - 22nd February 2010
No No NO NO !.It's bad enough as it is.............pay cuts should NOT be taken .......this will only keep wages down if/when things pick up again
Pay and Conditions - phali - 23rd February 2010
Quote Sith "Ask any engineer and they'll tell you that although they have a better career structure and prospects later on, they are still badly paid cannon fodder at the start."
My partner is an engineer, who started work after finishing uni with no "field experience" in engineering. His starting salary was ?10,000 more than I can expect to earn as a site assistant even with over two years experience, and thats assuming I have work all year round. While I can see that my university course was much less intense than his, his first promotion, and consequently a pay rise, came after less than two years of work, and he can expect annual pay rises on top of twice yearly bonus payments, for the foreseeable future, making what I can earn in archaeology look like small change, and my forecast earnings during my working life laughable.
Having said that, I've now been out of work since summer 2009, and am trying to get back out in the field. I've been temping in an office for the last few months on minimum wage, and I would be tempted to accept a job which paid less than my last archaeological job. However, the discussion here is if there should be any pay cuts at all, which would leave many site assistants struggling to live. I visited a mortgage advisor a few months ago, before I was laid off, who laughed at me when I told her I was an archaeologist. Guess I won't be buying a house anytime soon.
On the previous thread of health and safety, and how far site assistants are expected to go to get the job done, I have worked on sites before where we are expected to work in similar situations, and pressured if the supervisor wants the job done anyway. If you don't feel safe in any situation, do something about it. We all sign the Health and Safety sheet before starting a job, we all need to be aware of any dangers on site, and do something to make it safer. Feeling pushed into doing something without the safety of the situation being considered is always wrong.
Pay and Conditions - Sith - 24th February 2010
phali Wrote:Feeling pushed into doing something without the safety of the situation being considered is always wrong.
And could get you into unimaginable worlds of trouble if something goes wrong. The next time a supervisor asks you to do something that seems dodgy from a health and safety point of view (if it feels bad it usually is), or is contrary to the risk assessment you signed (you did read it I hope), ask him to write a few words accepting responsibility for any consequences, or alternatively to review the risks and prepare an updated Safe Plan of Action. If, as I suspect, he won't; tell him to stick it and leave him to it while you call his boss and then the HSE.
Pay and Conditions - grindlecat - 24th February 2010
accomadation isnt a 'perk'...its a necessity and normal practise in other construction/engineering work. Companies skimp on this, provide in adaquate, and in some cases, actually unsafe accomadation. i have proof of this, but without naming a particular unit, i cant put it here.
As a point on pay etc....the going rate for a groundworker, laying pipes, advertized currently in the North East is ?10 per hour, unqualified labour, plus an acc pay or ?20 a day.
the rate of pay for a supervisor to monitor this pipe laying...?6.30 an hour, no acc, no transport costs and you better not complain, cos you'll get sacked!
Pay and Conditions - Silent Bob - 24th February 2010
The question is:' Did pay really improve much during the 'happy times' of the great building bubble?'
Well, I've been working for that whole time, albeit at a rather small unit, and I eventually got paid a bit more because of a promotion. However, all of the people on my old grade have been stuck for years at the top of their pay scales and are unlikely to ever get a lot more. As for the occasional temporary staff, they always ended up with IFA minimum for whatever short contract they had. I feel like pay has largely stood still for most of my carreer whilst anyone doing curatorial work has seen theirs rise (even though it is still pathetic compared to the real world).
If pay improved with the speed of a rampaging glacier during the supposed good times, will it get better now we are well into the great economic meltdown? Sadly not a chance.
Pay and Conditions - brazier - 24th February 2010
Of course you should have a risk assessment for the archaeological work you undertake, and most sites you work on will also have their own documentation - the construction side - will want you to read, comprehend, act on accordingly, and sign - permit to work is one I believe it's called, and it's seriously taken. As for calling the HSE, call your health and safety officer back at base first, they will want to be informed of the situation of course, and will be able to speak to your supervisor there and then. There are situations which look - and definitely are - full of risk, in archaeological work, sites that come to mind are the stepped trench evals through vast amounts of overburden, but with a good plan in front of you, and sitting down with people to hammer out how it is to be done safely, and writing down ALL the risks, and how they will be (not should) minimised, and EXPLAINING this to everyone BEFORE you get anywhere near the site itself, then a potentially dangerous situation can be made safe. And always think of the staff first, and stop people from putting themselves at risk to "get at" some nice bit of archaeology - it can wait.
As for pay bargaining, there's an established method for that, and it's via the union, to make it transparent and equitable. I believe employers are going to pay more in the future, and that's because archaeology's going to become more professional, more skilled - and more respectable (or should that be respected). And so it jolly well should!
Pay and Conditions - GnomeKing - 24th February 2010
Grindlecat said "accomadation isnt a 'perk'...its a necessity and normal practise in other construction/engineering work. Companies skimp on this, provide in adaquate, and in some cases, actually unsafe accomadation. i have proof of this, but without naming a particular unit, i cant put it here."
I feel i can mention this one, since it was on national tv - though to be fair, the company did not actually provide the accomadtion - they provided nothing, but did 'recomended' a place where new staff were staying......
Anybody remember the Time Team Big Dig c.2001 in "Durovernum Cantiacorum" - Tony and his crew were in our 'accomadation' and used it as an example of how poorly paid and unglamourous real life for most commercial archaeologists actually was. The 'hotel' had been essentially unused since sometime in the late 80's (judging from sell by dates in the freezers and abondoned administrative documents). Please note this was not provided by the unit, but sugestsed by them to be affordable for new staff.....
Anyway, it made good telly for tony (and good on 'im)
Pay and Conditions - GnomeKing - 5th March 2010
this thread is still more important than the 'drugs' thread surely?
Pay and Conditions - GnomeKing - 21st March 2010
just for a bit of crossfertilization:
"what i find interesting is that improved conditions unionizing and all this other stuff weighing on peoples minds really starts with a belief in raising the standard of the end product.
If the product has to be better and the monitoring regime is empowered with arguments and agendas that demand better answers SKILL becomes a commercial asset..
Hell.... even the consultancy culture is forced to follow as signing off requires accessing know how of a sufficient standards rather than trying to make it all go away..
Arguing against improved standards is not a easy thing to do as those voices that say we should not challenge the accepted models are really arguing we don't want to know..
the key to better working conditions is the aim for improving standards... to do that you must demonstrate the substandard product society is receiving from the present system..
which is embarrassing and requires sacrifice and hard work.... Bring archaeology into disrepute
if we pretend all is well and good and atomize our problems and split them off into different areas..ie unionisation etc... without addressing the issue of standards I doubt very much whether a lot o people are going to be able to pay off there student loans in hurry."
from mididoctors (21/3/2010),in the No srsly Commercial Archaeology Sucks thread.
I have copied the intial commenst of Davidh from this thread into that one, and i would like to thank him personally for his contribution, which in retrospect, seems to have been very timley indeed...
Pay and Conditions - BAJR - 21st March 2010
I hear more and more the issues of skills and standards being raised... one should see (as many have also said to me) Archaeology Fieldwork is a skilled Craft... one that needs training and learning in the manner of a master mason or carpenter.
The more skill and the adherence to a common standard (which can be judged) should relate to a pay level that is comensurate.... otherwise what is the point when a raw recruit can earn teh same as a 10 year old hand who can draw a section with one hand while interpreting a complex series of intercutting features with the other... Surely Skills count?