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+--- Thread: PPS5 confusion!!! (/showthread.php?tid=3340)
PPS5 confusion!!! - Dinosaur - 29th July 2010
Made the mistake of pointing out that some clients already commission DBAs before going to planning, apparently this is deemed unethical in some way!
Oh, and pointing out that most clients are only going to pay for outreach if forced to by curators. Realism doesn't seem to popular currently, Madweasels is leading an ethical idealism campaign on other threads...:face-stir:
PPS5 confusion!!! - Unitof1 - 29th July 2010
Quote:
i dont think that relying on museums entirely to present new and interesting things is always the best course of action.
well close them down then.
The only reason out reach is mentioned is that we still have a lot of charity units which have it as part of their justification. Is your interview with a charity unit?
PPS5 confusion!!! - northerner - 29th July 2010
god i wish i ever got to work with clients who were forward thinking enough to even consider archaeology.... instead of having a strop when they realise part way through the works we were supposed to be there all along...
errrrm anyway back to the point, yep contractors will only pay for what they are made too but i dont think it makes it any less laudable when its done...... but surely curators are there to suggest and enforce planning conditions??
maybe we dont need new planning statements maybe we need better legal reactions when conditions are broken! taking ecology as an example... if a badger is killed, the company directors can be sentenced to jail time (doesnt really happen but its the maximum sentence) and the fines are astronomically high for any infringment.... so the construction industry by and large does as its told... they dont like it... but they do it......... what happens if they dont meet the archaeological planning conditions? and say excavate areas without an archaeologist? or machine through something important ''by accident'' what are the penalities?
If we sort that one out then im pretty sure any construction company will do anything on the condition no matter how much it costs...... then all the disagreement over the guidance will disappear!
hmmm i thought id lost my idealistc streak..........
PPS5 confusion!!! - northerner - 29th July 2010
Unitof1 Wrote:well close them down then.
The only reason out reach is mentioned is that we still have a lot of charity units which have it as part of their justification. Is your interview with a charity unit?
I dont mean that museums should be closed down, just that some projects deserve some more publicity and public access than others and that the best course of action would be for the unit undertaking the work to do the pulic side......
no its isnt with a charity unit, however my current company and last company both were...... but if it says in the pps that more should be done to let the community know then it should apply to ALL companies not just charities.....
PPS5 confusion!!! - Unitof1 - 29th July 2010
we undertake preservation by record. Its a rescue situation. Preservation by record is demanded by development control and as a record for everyone who was not there when the archaeology was destroyed. The community go to their local community smr her bingo
Outreach appears to be about turning me as I work into entertainment at best and worst education. I cannot tap dance. I am not a teacher. You will find that that teaching is a profession. I seem to recall that an archaeology degree is considered about one of the lowest degrees for entrance to teaching.
PPS5 confusion!!! - northerner - 29th July 2010
maybe we need to just agree to disagree? I work in a commercial environment undertaking fieldwork and actually i like it when we have open days etc... because at least it makes me feel like people recognise the work we are doing and i like the fact that local people can actually see theri heritage.... not just in reports written by proffessionals for professionals....
the ''charities'' ive worked for have people who undertake the outreach... people who have volunteered or applied.... noone is forced into becoming entertainment or teachers...
we all want different things from our jobs.. it doesnt mean anyone is wrong!
PPS5 confusion!!! - Dinosaur - 29th July 2010
I'm all for outreach (as long as its someone else giving the lecture!), but not if I'm doing it for free when I could be being paid doing something else. More effort should be put into forcing the client to pay for it, then it would be taken more seriously as a way of making money...I'm about to get abuse again, aren't I :face-crying:
PPS5 confusion!!! - Steven - 30th July 2010
Unitof1 Wrote: Greyfriar
northerner- there is big confusion in the curators minds as to what going on. HE6 says submit with every application. The curators are still carrying on as they always have. pps5 does not seem to have changed anything for them. ALL the curators are trying to hang on to pre-application discussion. This is done through case officers. There is a charge for this advice so in effect it has become a formal procedure. As far as I am concerned the ?lets have a discussion at the earliest opportunity because it says it in ppg and pps5 is a load of rubbish particularly as for the curator to give it some consideration they must then research the site. What you really are having is the first discussion about whats required-HE6 now tells us.
Currently the curators have a great get out which is if they dont ask for anything nobody will ever know if there was anything there. The curators leave no ifa type record of the basis of their assessment. There is absolutely no comeback on them. Most planning applications are a lottery. The thing is that HE6 needs to be set up particularly if we start losing curators due to cuts. What it needs is for consideration of archaeology to be put in the planning application packs, on the forms. We can then start talking about what is a dba. Most that the curators see are for big schemes. What we need is to design them for the smallest up and the words inexpensive have to be applied. Its the demands of the curators which makes them expensive?they seem to be able to go through 100s of applications and find that nothing is required. This must have a cost per application and set the standard.
It's all become clear! Uo1 isn't anti-curator, he's a frustrated wannabe curator!
He wants to be both consultant (charging of course) and curator (deciding what needs doing), he hates the unaccountability of the present curators (forgetting that every council has scrutiny procedures and he can simply write to his local member, Douh!) and want to replace them with HIM, as of course he is totally accountable........oh hang on.........he's just a pseudonym with an avatar on a website! Presumably then if a member of the public thinks his DBA and recommendations to a planning committee were sh*t they can simply complain to the cartoon character ombudsman who can inflict punishments such as squashing by giant anvil.
This would also solve his pension obsession because he could charge all those people who don't need a heritage statement who could have just phoned up a curator to get that advice free but will have to rely on the squeaky clean, totally moral, with a public duty of care private sector (i.e. him)! Loads of money! ker ching! :face-stir:
PPS5 confusion!!! - Sith - 30th July 2010
vulpes Wrote:Sounds like Sith is trying to drum up trade!
Curses, rumbled!
PPS5 confusion!!! - Unitof1 - 30th July 2010
Stephen Its defiantly about my pension but your advise is not free. Its not free to the tax payers and its not free to the developers. Its not free to archaeologists.
As an archaeologist I imagine that I can trace my profession back to the antiquarians and geologists. I don?t know what job name/description they (the same Opus Dei who created the ifa) have got you under steve but its probably not more than forty years old if that. Now what is a curator, where did they come from. Whats the history of council curation. Its a contrived position. Archaeologists are quite capable of doing curation. The very act of putting a pot in a bag is curation where as what you do is rather obscure in the curation stakes. If you are worried about ethics we can refer to the same codes of conducts that you probably allude to.
And as you say all that?s involved is a phone call. I can do that and be an archaeologist as well. One of the problems of your system is that it is unfair. Some poor sods have to go to the horrible archaeologist to get a heritage statements but many don?t. Where is that fair. All its done is create an unnecessary adjudication in the system which then requires an adjudicator along with an administration and central heating, I wonder what they all will want when they retire from this life time of giving ?free? advice down the phone.
Now you must be working to some criteria, what are they, I presume that they are agreed to by your wonderful councillors through whom you seem to justify your care of duty. Get them to write the criteria down.
Quote:[SIZE=3]Presumably then if a member of the public thinks his DBA and recommendations to a planning committee were sh*t they can simply complain to the cartoon character ombudsman who can inflict punishments such as squashing by giant anvil.[/SIZE]
You don?t understand do you, they can go and find another archaeologist who was willing to take their case or take it up with my professional association. That?s how it works in all the other professions.
Maybe stev you need to see a doctor if you don?t like the cure then get a second opinion. But sorry forgot in your system you first ring up somebody in the council who is not a doctor and ask them if you need to see a doctor and they tell you what do down the phone and its free