Druids and Avebury Reburial

[trowelmonkey]

Almost as emotive as the Bonekickers main thread which finally creaked to a halt after 265 comments!

[Oddie]

Intersting stuff ? sorry if this is making some people yawn?

For Many Druids, and certainly CoBDO, spirituality is as real as scientific data. Idea forms identity, is interpreted and, through belilef, known and expressed. The problem comes through interpretation eg. A burial mound may be interpreted in various ways ? a symbol of power in the landscape, a commemoration to person or tribe / a reliquary of the guardian of the ancestral landscape or even as a pregnant goddess from which the dead are reborn. All are relevant, and both are given meaning by the present thereby creating a known ? or imagined past. In this way, ethical concerns / guidelines of social minority groups such as of archaeologists / musologists and Druids are all equally meaningful and worthy of due and fair consideration.

The PPG16 guide to respecting, whenever possible, our ancestors in situ is great, and the new Ministry of Justice guidelines on non-Christian burials go some way to addressing the imbalance. Unfortunately, the MoJ guidelines also permit retention if applications are made ? so our ancestors sadly remain in storage.

I do not doubt that archaeology cares about the dead, it?s just that archaeology seems only to care about it?s own thinking processes and to disregard alternative interpretations.

This is very dangerous, and the thin end of the wedge. Look at what the quest for knowledge and power did in the ?new? worlds we ?discovered?. The end result of not considering others is meaningless cultural displacement and everything that comes with that. Notwithstanding the above, I know that archaeology does care. Most I have worked and studied with are non-violent and are not extremist or militant. Indeed, one can see spirituality in many people who claim no religion. Even in the US and Australia, science realises it?s mistakes. Tribes remain displaced.

May I also point out that the excavated dead are linked to landscape, and through the bone, to the spirit body. In this way, bones have meanings that extend beyond inanimate data. To argue DCMS guidelines or other thinking processes that do not consider or attempt to define or place spirit does not make a convincing argument against CoBDO?s requests for reburial. This simply draws attention to an inability or unwillingness to re-think archaeology.

I truly wanted Druids, Pagans, archaeologists, scientists and the public to respond to the consultation ? hence my work with the media. Something tells me that most responses of consultees will not equally reflect the populous. In the face of great adversity, and back stabbing, I tried my best to reach people.

My lister 3 engine keeps overheating. Could be the fuel injectors or a blockage in the air, oil or diesel feeds. O

Reburial Officer
COBDO


Oddie

[Austin Ainsworth]

quote:Originally posted by Oddie

Intersting stuff ? sorry if this is making some people yawn?

For Many Druids, and certainly CoBDO, spirituality is as real as scientific data. Idea forms identity, is interpreted and, through belilef, known and expressed. The problem comes through interpretation eg. A burial mound may be interpreted in various ways ? a symbol of power in the landscape, a commemoration to person or tribe / a reliquary of the guardian of the ancestral landscape or even as a pregnant goddess from which the dead are reborn. All are relevant, and both are given meaning by the present thereby creating a known ? or imagined past. In this way, ethical concerns / guidelines of social minority groups such as of archaeologists / musologists and Druids are all equally meaningful and worthy of due and fair consideration.

The PPG16 guide to respecting, whenever possible, our ancestors in situ is great, and the new Ministry of Justice guidelines on non-Christian burials go some way to addressing the imbalance. Unfortunately, the MoJ guidelines also permit retention if applications are made ? so our ancestors sadly remain in storage.

I do not doubt that archaeology cares about the dead, it?s just that archaeology seems only to care about it?s own thinking processes and to disregard alternative interpretations.

This is very dangerous, and the thin end of the wedge. Look at what the quest for knowledge and power did in the ?new? worlds we ?discovered?. The end result of not considering others is meaningless cultural displacement and everything that comes with that. Notwithstanding the above, I know that archaeology does care. Most I have worked and studied with are non-violent and are not extremist or militant. Indeed, one can see spirituality in many people who claim no religion. Even in the US and Australia, science realises it?s mistakes. Tribes remain displaced.

May I also point out that the excavated dead are linked to landscape, and through the bone, to the spirit body. In this way, bones have meanings that extend beyond inanimate data. To argue DCMS guidelines or other thinking processes that do not consider or attempt to define or place spirit does not make a convincing argument against CoBDO?s requests for reburial. This simply draws attention to an inability or unwillingness to re-think archaeology.

I truly wanted Druids, Pagans, archaeologists, scientists and the public to respond to the consultation ? hence my work with the media. Something tells me that most responses of consultees will not equally reflect the populous. In the face of great adversity, and back stabbing, I tried my best to reach people.

My lister 3 engine keeps overheating. Could be the fuel injectors or a blockage in the air, oil or diesel feeds. O

Reburial Officer
COBDO


Oddie

Are you related to Ian Hodder?

[historic building]

quote:Originally posted by Oddie

...spirituality is as real as scientific data.
Reburial Officer
COBDO


Oddie

No you CHOOSE to believe this.

You are also continuing to peddle the idea that christian remains are not retained in museum collections. You must know that vastly more christian burials are retained in museum collections than burials from any other period of religious belief, or those that have any other belief system applied to them by us.

[BAJR Host]

quote:May I also point out that the excavated dead are linked to landscape, and through the bone, to the spirit body.

according to you ... but this is acts of belief.. and not suitable for testing.

Respecting the remains is one thing and we can be sure that archaeologists do this (or should) -- placing a belief on remains is another.. and can fall down when subjected to evidence (provided by archaeology) about reatment of the dead at different periods, even in different areas.. some cultures keep all the bones... others burn them... some deflesh, some don't, some keep a skull and other keep a body under the house, how can all the ancestors of the past be right? Or do you only pick and choose...?

A consultation and discussion requires a debate that has potential for compromise... I see only dogma. You are very welcome to beleive what you believe ... is it however a truth?

?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake

[tom wilson]

Surely consultation can only be deemed to have been successful when everyone agrees
...with Oddie.

[gorilla]

I think this thread has come full circle (and then some).

I can no longer contain my indifference

"I hope one day chickens will be able to cross the road without having their motives questioned" Anon

[BAJR Host]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDfI6Hufugg[/video]

enjoy! (well those that can watch you tube!

"Entrepreneurs are simply those who understand that there is little difference between obstacle and opportunity and are able to turn both to their advantage."
Niccolo Machiavelli

[Oddie]

Look at what the quest for knowledge and power did in the ?new? worlds we ?discovered?. The end result of not considering others is meaningless cultural displacement and everything that comes with that. This included the theft of ancestral remains (because they had meanings that did not fit with those of 'trad' europeans), murder, rape and slavery of tribal peoples (who thought and lived differently). All this in the name of progress. I find it very disturbing that such disregard (fronted by the never ending quest for knowledge) continues today. Such a spiritual poverty is post-colonial and a shameful violence that is alive today. It is an abuse of privalage and power. Do you truly advocate the further disintegration of civil liberties?

I pray future discussions on reburial will include people willing to listen to each other with open hearts.

Awen /|\

The engine problem may just be a blocked fuel filter. Also have to flush her thorugh.

Oddie

[Oxbeast]

Incidentally, the consultation period is now ended and a draft report is available from http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/serve.../nav.19819

Lets just hope that they agree with Oddie, as anyone who doesn't is clearly no better than a rapist or a murderer.