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Ladies, Gentlemen, an awful lot of very interesting views. A serious topic too I might add. On a cautionary note, I would not encourage the seeding of sites under any circumstances. I also feel that the term in question is fundamentaly racist. That said, looking beyond the descriptive text issues, this topic obviously has the ability to prompt emotion (albeit in the form of an inexcusable outburst) and the offering of a view. So, whilst your sentiments are welcome sire, the use of racist terminology and the blatant stereo-typing of an already hounded (gee-thanks Michael Howard-criminal justice act 1994) minority group are about as welcome as a french kiss at a family re-union. So much so, I`m not going to edit it yet. Mr Hosty has clearly not had the opportunity to view this-he would have removed it and then, probably burnt it. There. Roasting over. Back to the topic guys, this is getting good!!! 
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First.... the terms used are unacceptable... consider a first warning.
Second, the remarkable outburst on detectorists, I take it he has had bad experiences... they tell similar stories about archaeologists.. what we are doing.. and BAJR in particular is trying to break down these outdated views. Only by understanding each other.... working together... learning and sharing our knowledge will we get on with what we are all here for... learning about the past and sharing this with teh public... Remember that
My thanks to troll...
I keep this forum fairly open and let people say what they think... only by knowing what people say and think can these views be challanged - discussed and hopefully put to bed!
I am shocked by the comments... but will leave it at 1 warning.
thanks to those that post here.
Another day another WSI?
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Yeah well said Troll, racism of any kind has no place here (I hope)!!
deep
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The word in question is a perjorative slang term of obscure etymology, it has no dictionary definition which may be used to deem it a racist term. The word is generally held to be a contraction of the word ?turnpike? and may derive from the use of the term to describe someone as rough as the operators of the turnpike toll roads were often abrasive and aggressive in their extraction of the toll for using these roads. Alternatively, the term may have its origins in the word ?turnpike? in its non-toll road meaning, as the place where travelling thieves or beggars (not genuine gypsy or travelling communities) camped. While the term has been used to describe travelling people there are various kinds of travellers, of which only Romany and Irish travellers occur with enough frequency to be described as racial groups. Therefore, unless specifically applied to a Romany or Irish person the term is not racist as travelling is a lifestyle choice, not a race. In recent years the definition of the word in question has become more open and it can be used to refer to a section of the ?urban underclass? otherwise referred to by regional terms such as neds, chavs, charvers, etc., this is primarily the sense I used the word in, in reference to the moonraking, selfish attitude of some detectorists.
I make no apology for using the term as where I come from it has no racist connotations. In future perhaps people would refrain from knee-jerk Student Grant-style reactions, I will consider myself suitably chastised and banned from the Student Union until further notice.
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I do not see an apology for your 'knee jerk' reaction to detectorists.
And your comments about seeding sites are slightly out of tep with most other people.
Your comments do indeed belong in a student union, as they show a lack of maturity.
This is an open forum, if you have a personal issue with detectorists, lets it ou and then we can discuss it, but this can be done in a more positive way than just name calling.
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Based on my experiences in archaeology it is not just metal detectorists who use metal detectors but also bogus aviation archaeologists and organised criminals involved in looting antiquities. Also from my experience of archaeologically-monitored detecting and portable antiquities schemes many detectorists throw away things they cannot identify, ignore and destroy non-metallic objects, and lack the surveying ability or GPS equipment to accurately record the position of their finds or even the depth they were found at. It is true that many stray finds are in the topsoil, but it is not feasible (or possible) to restrict metal detecting to the topsoil, how many detectorists clean the section of their holes to check? In an ideal world I would like to see the use of detectors restricted to archaeologists but I am at a loss on how this would be implemented.
Organised criminals send gangs armed with metal detectors hundreds of miles to despoil sites and sometimes earth-moving equipment is used to steal an entire site which is then dumped in a ware-house and scanned with detectors. This happens in Britain, you would be horrified at what goes on. Some of the worst abuses happen in aviation pseudo-archaeology where war graves are violated and corpses stripped of jewellery and clothing, live ammunition is exposed and distributed putting the public at risk and artefacts end up being sold for profit. You may think I am somewhat draconian but a lot of what goes on is seriously out of order, I have jeopardised my safety to report people to the police, so strong are my feelings on the subject.
As for seeding, as anyone who has dug on a site that has had problems with nighthawks knows, it is an effective, if random, way of impeding their progress, if it can be used to protect sites under excavation it can be used to protect unexcavated sites. Other countries have taken steps to keep looters at bay and we should do the same.
I hope this has made my position clearer, as for your comments that I am ?out of tep (sic)? and ?lets it ou (sic),? I hope you can see that these illustrate what I mean by people hitting the keyboard and posting without forethought.
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Some quotes from the BBC?s Inside Out website:
( http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/east/seri...sure.shtml)
?But before you grab your trowel and head for the nearest field, take heed, unearthing a discovery is a complicated process, if you follow the correct channels that is!?
?Mike and Gordon followed such procedures (having found a hoard valued at ?290,000 by the BM) and after two years of complicated, bureaucratic wrangling, they each received ?89,000. "We did everything right and it seems as if we were punished."?
?So recovering a find may not be as easy as it first seems and there are some who chose to shun the legal route altogether in favour of a quicker, more profitable answer.
They are known in the business as ?nighthawks?.?
?You do everything by the book,does it work, no. Do you get a pat on the back, NO. You mention that you are a detectorist you are a condemned man , you have to wait years for your finds to be recorded and then if they have not been lost , you get half of what they are worth.? (Nightflyer, in the reader?s comments section)
?I have just started doing metal detecting and i think you should be able to go anywhere to do it.? ?The finds should belong to us all if you buy a detector and spend the time to find then they should be yours. Some of the items being found have been deposited before these people owned the land so what gives them the right to own them.? ?Finders keepers loser weepers.? (Steven, in the reader?s comments section)
?Night hawking is my one and only hobby and I absolutely love it. I got into metal detecting 2 years ago and basicly I am too late in the game to find any decent land in the day, so I have to night hawk.? (John, in the reader?s comments section)
As you see, this is the impression that no lesser an authority than the BBC are portraying, to me it implies that illegal detecting is a profitable pursuit. I am also highly critical of the ?Hidden Treasure? TV program for the way it emphasises the large amounts of money that can be made by detecting, which I think sends out the wrong message.
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you could also quote...
"Gary Brun (Norway)
As the administrator of http://www.minelabowners.com which is a forum for metaldetectorists.
We have over 500 members from all over the world. Not one of them is in favour of Night Hawking.
We are all in favour of these people being reported and punished. I just hope that these "greedy" people do not give the usual law abiding detectorists such a bad name."
Another day another WSI?
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Two sides to a story Sea Surgeon.
Susan......
First of all and on behalf of other Metel-detectors I would like to apologize to Mr John Browning who suffered the Nighthawks on his land.
As a member of a M.D.Club this is strictly out of bounds for any member to go out at night.
Before we go onto any land we always get permission from the landowner once this has been granted a contract will be drawn up and both landowner and club will sign this contract.
When any Artefact or Coin is found it is reported to the Portable Antiquities Scheme Finds Liaison Officers who will record the find which will then go on to a national data base which builds a picture of the past.
Colin Galvin..........
Most often, Archaeologists stress the importance of 'archaeological context' when excavating finds, and frequently complain that detectorists destroy the 'context' of an item when they dig something up.
If you have ever watched 'Time Team', you'll know that one of the first things that they do is move in with a JCB and scrape off the top 12 inches of topsoil, and I'm sure that this is almost certainly standard archaeological practice...
Shades of Pot, Kettle, Black?
Another day another WSI?
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I could quote Gary Brun, but how can I be certain that all 500 of his members claiming to be anti-nighthawk aren't nighthawks. I could also quote the detecting club secretary, but once again the club could be infiltrated by the unscrupulous. Call me paranoid but anyone could join a metal detectinbg club and then just pocket the good stuff, it's bad enough in archaeology I can think of three examples where finds have been pocketed for profit or for their own sake.
I think the point is- controlling detecting, what's the solution? detectors -what is their role in survey and excavation? archaeology in the topsoil -are we neglecting it?
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