Training and Volunteers

[oldgirl]

quote:Originally posted by Austin Ainsworth

quote:Originally posted by Frankieob

I beleive, especially in todays climate, that Companies should not be allowed to hire more volunteers than professional archaeologists on excavations. We need more job protection!

Sounds like knee jerk protectionism to me.

Archaeology/heritage is for [u]ALL</u> not just for people employed in the commercial sector.

Volunteers aren't hired by commercial contractors, they are unpaid additions to the 'professional' hired staff. Despite the anecdotal nonsense spouted by some in the pub on a Friday night I've never seen, (in over 20 years as an archaeologist), a commercially run site which was staffed by volunteers in order to avoid paying for a 'professional' field team.

Does anybody have any hard evidence that this has ever happened?

Before PPG16 I've seen many sites run by and dug by 'volunteers' (for want of a better term - 'amateurs' is no better) - and, not wishing to upset my esteemed friends and colleagues who are pro community involvement etc (cos I like you all and see where you're coming from a lot of the time) the results were pretty bad, where they'd bothered to actually do the work at all. I've dealt with stuff that was literally written on the back of a fag packet - which is all very well, if it's done properly, but it wasn't. I have also seen very very predatory behaviour by male 'directors' towards young female volunteers.

We've worked very hard to have what we do recognised as something that can't just be done by anyone with their own shovel. I'm not saying don't involve people, but I am saying let's not shoot urselves in the foot here. Everyone has an interest in our Health Service and I'm involved in a local forum where I live which helps the local trust decide some priorities, but I wouldn't want any old person dealing with me when I was ill. i.e. Yes to community involvement, and yes to professional involvement - but in both cases only when and where appropriate. And only with everyone understanding what they can and can't do!

[RedEarth]

Here, here Oldgirl.

Concern over the use of volunteers in commercial archaeology is not the same as knee jerk protectionism. In any other business/industry concerns over protectism would be do with being undercut by cheaper labour, not people working for free. However, it would be interesting to see if anyone does have a genuine example of volunteers taking paid jobs.

Having said that, it is a very difficult area and the effects on professionals (if there actually are any) might be quite subtle. I'm all in favour of community projects, if well run etc, but I have come across several that are anything but and are being run by 'archaeologists' of dubious qualification and ability (in fact, it was the first thing I moaned about on the BAJR forum!). I'm concerned about the notion too that seems to be currently popular amongst some that community projects are the way forward in these difficult times - I really can't see how that will work as most only seem to to employ a small number of archaeologist anyway, which is hardly a long-term plan.

As for the question how to people gain experience? If universities actually taught anything useful that wouldn't be such a problem; if commercial organisations actually paid for training, that wouldn't be such a problem. Some already mentioned shooting ourselves in the foot I think....

[BAJR Host]

Two things to bring up here:

quote:Yes to community involvement, and yes to professional involvement - but in both cases only when and where appropriate. And only with everyone understanding what they can and can't do!

That is where I agree entirely.. (however I have also seen reports and records of similar crappy quality in commercial land too...)

@Red Earth.. Ah yes, the community or training dig of dubious quality too... I currently have my eye on a couple... and I weep with frustration... As was said at the Student Conference in London... Anyone can call themselves an arhcaeologist.. anyone cn set up a dig... and even call themselves a director... I looked at some in the UK for example, and Directors and Supervisors even the Finds Officers.. (all grand titles - but, only a few university digs worth of experience behind them.. and non publications ..) yipes...

Could they be stopped? Should they be? Who would stop them? regulation? I also have sitting on my desk a report from the Edinburgh Archaeological Field Society... very well done, very respected, and reports often grow into full publications.. a reputation that should eb supported.

I could indeed put up a list of Volunteer Projects in the UK... I wonder how many would pass the requirements in IfA Guidance? And if not, then whose responsibility is it to bring them up?

Constant development is the law of life, and a man who always tries to maintain his dogmas in order to appear consistent drives himself into a false position.
Mohandas Gandhi

[RedEarth]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

Two things to bring up here:

quote:Yes to community involvement, and yes to professional involvement - but in both cases only when and where appropriate. And only with everyone understanding what they can and can't do!

That is where I agree entirely.. (however I have also seen reports and records of similar crappy quality in commercial land too...)

@Red Earth.. Ah yes, the community or training dig of dubious quality too... I currently have my eye on a couple... and I weep with frustration... As was said at the Student Conference in London... Anyone can call themselves an arhcaeologist.. anyone cn set up a dig... and even call themselves a director... I looked at some in the UK for example, and Directors and Supervisors even the Finds Officers.. (all grand titles - but, only a few university digs worth of experience behind them.. and non publications ..) yipes...

Could they be stopped? Should they be? Who would stop them? regulation? I also have sitting on my desk a report from the Edinburgh Archaeological Field Society... very well done, very respected, and reports often grow into full publications.. a reputation that should eb supported.

I could indeed put up a list of Volunteer Projects in the UK... I wonder how many would pass the requirements in IfA Guidance? And if not, then whose responsibility is it to bring them up?

&lt;hr&gt;Constant development is the law of life, and a man who always tries to maintain his dogmas in order to appear consistent drives himself into a false position.
Mohandas Gandhi

I think you have hit that particularly large nail on the head.

As for listings of volunteer opportunities, not naming any names but as far as I can tell even the largest and most reputable suppliers of such information do not check the standard of the projects advertised. How could they?

There is clearly a space to be filled providing suitable experience for those wanting to get into commercial archaeology, but I'm not sure if anyone is currently filling it.

[BAJR Host]

It was a nail head that was hard to miss...

and yes.. (being one that does supply info - and not wanting to speak for others who do) how do you find out about the quality of a volunteer site? You can't personally check each one.... and so you have to rely on feedback... however, how would a person know if they are being trained poorly? how indeed would a volunteer know if the copious records and photographs and resemblance to a proper dig actually end up in a proper report with al the relevant post excavation requirements... ? Currently with one of mine, I am trying to explain that the more you find, the more the cost post ex is... and thats something they can't do.. and so 2/3rds of the grant will have to go on completing the report to a publication... &lt;sigh&gt;

However, It can be done... perhaps it needs a more structured leadership and registration with a suitable body that does ensure standards... which of course costs money...

A kind of volunteer curatorial service....

I would hope that volunteers working on a commercial project, do not impact on standards, only enhance the profile of the project, and learn from the experience... the end product will have to go through the full curatorial procedures... so should be easy enough to see if there is a drop in quality.

Though remembering the past years, I would not be alone in saying that some of thopse sent out by commercial companies ranged from school leavers to less than commercially experienced university graduates..

Constant development is the law of life, and a man who always tries to maintain his dogmas in order to appear consistent drives himself into a false position.
Mohandas Gandhi

[oldgirl]

Voluntary organisation can become R(A)Os, same as commercial ones.

[BAJR Host]

I think the operative is CAN not REQUIRED TO..

I can feel the hackles rise around the socieites as I type

Constant development is the law of life, and a man who always tries to maintain his dogmas in order to appear consistent drives himself into a false position.
Mohandas Gandhi

[YellowPete]

I think primarily, if we are to consider universities as a source of field archaeologists, I do not beleive it is the universities job to teach them how to do archaeology, they focus on trying to get srtudents to find loopholes of archaeological thought. its the same every time, they leave out a few bits of thinking cheese and find out if anyone bites.

Also the principle direction of a student is not necessarily to become an archaeologist, unless we wish to develop community archaeology further down the line.

We must also remeber that field archaeology and heritage works are changing and the professional commercial workforce will equally have to be willing to retrain and refocus ourselves to whatever skill lie ahead.

A training excavation is a chance to see a bit of what it is like, the fun, the games, the camradere (i can't beleive i wrote that) and the kind of stuff that they are studying, to give them a hands on perspective to develop their studies.

as for the oft dicussed professional recognition we so surely want at times, we have made comparisons with the architectural industry where, to become a commercial partisipant, in a given area, or field you pursue a masters in that subject.

this is where volunteering comes in. You volunteer in the industry before financially commiting yourself to whatever end.

also the further education system has had in place for some time masters qualifications, which many people have scoffed at as being valid and appropriate, but given that we now find ourselves needing to think about the diversity of the material we work with these qualifications in professional archaeology are becoming heirs apparent, as real professional qualifications for the future of the industry. these in conjunction with experience leave options for diversifying the industry into long untouched areas.

lets face it, the universites have been supplying the demand, but you can't make horses drink! and on top of that we are not the be all as an industry, or the world.

as for training excavations, i think i would be too subjective on such matters to provide clear ideas, but we do have different types of univerity and different types of qualification and the field experience requirements of coursework could probably taken as a starting point, someway away from moving cabients, to appropriate mind and body activites.

anyways


txt is
Mike

[oldgirl]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

I think the operative is CAN not REQUIRED TO..

I can feel the hackles rise around the socieites as I type

&lt;hr&gt;Constant development is the law of life, and a man who always tries to maintain his dogmas in order to appear consistent drives himself into a false position.
Mohandas Gandhi

Assuming that is in response to my point, exactly. No-one is REQUIRED to join the R(A)O system. But if you want to demonstrate that you are meeting a standard, then it helps to join a program that demonstrates that.

The R(A)O system is about helping organisations understand and reach some basic minimum standards with regard to archaeological practice, health & safety and treating the people who are doing the work with at least a modicum of respect (I can hear the hollow laughs right now - I know I know, but at least it's there in the Code of Conduct and there has been at least one sucessful disciplinary case - brought by the IfA itself- relating to this aspect).

Voluntary/amateur organisations have nothing to fear in joining the scheme. It's a shame more of them don't. If they do things differently, what better way to help 'commercial' organisations appreciate the potential benefits of a different way of looking at things?

Hey Oz, maybe you should apply to be an RO!

[Austin Ainsworth]

quote:Originally posted by oldgirl

Hey Oz, maybe you should apply to be an RO!

It'll be a cold day in hell before that happens. }