Depository?

[the invisible man]

Pete, far from doing any work I am actually a mere and humble mature (ho ho) 2nd year archaeology student, after having spent 10 years or so as an amateur/volunteer/extramural student type bod. Before my mid-life crisis I spent 30 years designing buildings for a living, and not only have I been inside a number of distribution centres but I have designed such facilties and numerous warehouses, so I do have a vague idea of what they are and how big they can be - and how much they cost, to build and run, particularly if fully serviced (ie environmentally controlled as a depository would be).

As you may have gathered I have also been in the LAARC, which is a Very Large Warehouse. Their website (look for MOLAS or MOL) will no doubt give the floor area. They themselves told me, on a private tour of the facility, that they expect to be full in 7 years. That is just from the London area.

No, it would not take very long to fill a national depository with ceramics from the whole country, not very long at all. Perhaps someone from a medium sized unit could give us an estimate of how much material they recover every year on average, including of course non-ceramic material and the site archive, but I think you are grossly under-estimating it, Pete, from your suggestion that a van could make an annual collection round.

MP's love talking about bold statements but they don't like paying for them! Of course a national mega-centre is technically feasible, but as I have suggested, would be logistically impractical, and possibly politically undesireable - over centralization.

I'm not sure what you mean by "other disciplines" but certainly many museums are unable to accept any more. I most certainly agree that money would have been far better spent on facilities of this nature than that soppy great dome however!

[Petethedig]

Like I said you sound like you come from the archaeological world! I'm not at all trying to knock you, but you suggest that these smaller centre's will be, or are, full! So whats your answer because all I've read so far are reasons not too? Having been involved in designing buildings you must have a solution other than smaller regional one's who's lifespan would be much less than that of a distribution size building! Tell me where you perceive all this detritus going to? The cost to run one big centre will be appreciably a lot less than many smaller ones for sure.
I personally feel that British Archaeology is coming to a crisis time where you have nowhere to put all the finds you've dug up? Maybe this will mean a severe cutback on the amount of planned digs?
As for me I prefer to look for workable answers, why not use the Dome for such a use!

Evil to him who thinks evil.

[Digger]

There are several isues associated with this idea. Finds have a regional importance and as such the people wishing to 'research' whether professional or amateur will most likely be doing this within their own county. I don't think a single central store is efficient, effective or disireable. I think resources would be better spent on County stores, removing the dupplication of individual small city/parish stores. Somewhere with good public transport links for students and the elderly.

[Petethedig]

I agree that finds do have a regional importance, but surely most of the 'bagged and tagged' artefact's don't? Like I said I've heard of a recent episode where finds may have been put back in the ground due to lack of space. Can you imagine in a hundred years time when someone suddenly comes upon lots of roman pot frags in huge piles in the ground! You and I both know that tones of the finds in store are duplicates and will continue to be duplicates. Why not take these and place them in a central collecting area. Free up space for the finds you really do need to keep around!
By the way, it might be easy for you to study these artefact's in your local museum or collection centre, but believe me members of the public like myself( a metal detectorist) have no chance! How do I know this, well I once tried! Must have thought I was going to rob them, or maybe they didn't like my amateur status if you get my drift?

Evil to him who thinks evil.

[the invisible man]

Site archives, including of course all recovered artefacts, must be accessible. That is the point of recovering them. If they are made inaccessible, they might as well be buried again - or better still, not dug up in the first place. The archive should also be kept together - context is all important in all senses of the word. The relevance of an artefact might be its duplication. It could be dangerous and misleading to seperate the artifacts from a site or a context. When does a pot become a broken pot, and when does a broke pot become an assemblage of sherds?

There should not normally be any problem with obtaining access to a museum or other repository. On the contrary, I have found museum staff to be some of the nicest friendliest and most helpful people I have ever met, they have gone well out of their way to assist me in my studies, and fished out all sorts of items from store for me to examine (including some quite well known names). Others have sent me slides, drawings, and other information - including one professor from the Uni of Lund, Sweden (excuse a bit of name dropping!). Obviously you have to ask well in advance, pref in writing or by email, and establish your bona fides. Maybe they misunderstood when they heard you were a metal detectorist? Obviously (and sadly) that is a sensitive issue.

As for one centre per county, maybe it should depend on the size of the county and the amount of development taking place there. Say one for the west country, one for Yorkshore, one for the north west and so on?

[Petethedig]

Thanks Mr Invisible, you see a little debate and someone questioning why can be helpful when deciding why you might need something! Regional collecting areas would be fine in my books. I have no opinion either way, but its good to have someone ask the awkward questions! Access to museums and their collections is another issue all together, that is a sore point for me I'm afraid. I find some establishments totally snooty and ultra academic. This you see might be an easy ride for someone close to the business but not for the likes of me.
Sorry back to the subject matter! How would you feel about 12 regional centre's?

Evil to him who thinks evil.

[the invisible man]

I think the principle is the important thing. Exactly how many would be needed is something that would need to be carefully researched. Factors to be considered might include geography - physical distance for accessibilty, and the amount of materials likely to be deposited which in turn will depend on population, and the amount of archaeology being done i.e. amount of development and the amount of "archaeology" present (not really easy to predict). This is without taking PAS material into account which will depend on the local interest.

A polite written request to a museum or other academic, explaining what you want to do and why you want to do it, is unlikely to be rebuffed. Sometimes they do take their time though. Of course you can now go through your local Finds Liason Officer, if appropriate.

[disheartened]

I work in Ireland where the National Museum is meant to act as a central repository for all finds from all manner of archaeological investigations throughout the 26 counties. This includes not only full excavations, but also monitoring, testing, fieldwalking, assessments, and anything else that ever appears, be it prehistoric swords or twentieth century granny ware. This is a legal requirement for any director who applies for a licence for any of the above jobs.

In theory it's a fantastic idea, in practice it's just not working. The stores are tiny, a new store was opened about 5 years ago (not sure of the date) but, needless to say, thanks to the indiscriminatory policies which we operate under, it is full already. The Museum is planning to custom build a store the likes of which you're talking about, but it's not due to be built til the end of the decade. We have a slightly different situation here in that all archaeology is centrally controlled, and so we are required to have a central store. Also, Ireland is a little bit smaller than the UK, so in terms of transporting to and fro, it's a bit more workable.

How and ever, what really needs to be addressed here is finds retrieval. What is the point in keeping nineteenth century nails, blackware, grannyware, the list goes on, when it is not necessarily the most cost-effective thing to do? Of course, it must all be reported on, recorded, and all the rest, but is it honestly worth keeping when it means that the budget is going to spiral out of control trying to conserve and archive stuff that you can find in your granny's kitchen. There must be a way out of this mindset, it's a difficult issue, but once the stuff that's really worth archiving and holding on to is sorted out from the rest, then talking about national research centres becomes more profitable. You are going to make more of an impact by saying you need somewhere to store all the valuable (not monetary value, but research valued) finds rather than the stuff that you find in, again, your granny's kitchen when you're making your case for National Lottery funding, EU money, and all the rest...

Or do you agree?[:p]

[troll]

Again-why can`t we filter out all the low to medium level stuff and give it to schools/colleges and or public buildings for study/incorporation within curriculae or simply to display?

[the invisible man]

Hmm, maybe, but I guess the problem is that what is perceived as little (research) value today may not be tomorrow.

Also, what you can find in your granny's house today will not be there in years to come.

But one does feel that this can be taken a bit too far.