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15th October 2005, 04:27 PM
As you know I don't like to quibble, but most archaeology degrees are of course BA's... but I do suspect that univeristies ain't what they used to be, to accommodate the lunatic and arbitrary decree that 50% of school leavers should go to uni. Why? Shouldn't it be that EVERYONE for whom a university course is appropriate should be able to go to uni, be it 1% or 90%? Should we not respect non-academic occupations for themselves just as much?
Training for what, Troll? Do you mean for commercial archaeology? As I have suggested elsewhere, should the industry not play some part in the training of its staff?
Today, Bradford. Tomorrow, well, Bradford probably.
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15th October 2005, 10:08 PM
Agreed-the industry should take responsibility for some of the training but, that does`nt excuse universities. One only has to make comparisons between the grand claims in prospectus material and the finished product. Internships with appropriate companies would be a way forward perhaps? To answer your question- as unit-based field archaeology seems to be the main employment for the mass of grads, is`nt this where training is most needed? A recent post tells us that this can, involve handfulls of students crowded around sections drawn on pieces of cardboard. Not ideal by any means and not-in my opinion-"in pursuit of excellence" either.....
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16th October 2005, 09:46 PM
Ah yes..That was one of mine wasn't it.( the cardboard thing that is)
Troll is right about the woefully inadequate preparation uni's provide for the "Real World" of Archaeology. Personally I think an idea posted on one of the other threads of a "Sandwich Year" with a professional unit would, in theory, be a good way of tackling this, I'm just not sure there'd be enough work to go round, and the cynic in me wonders whether the units would regard them as a cheap alternative to pro's...How many people enrolled on archaeology-based degree courses this year? anyone know? An alternative might be for universities to run massive year-round research digs...Yeah, and back on this planet,point is -as someone already said I think- You can't teach field archaeology in a lecture hall, it's like learning to drive from a car handbook..
That said, I'd be interested to know how many graduates actually go on to work in the profession..maybe that's another thread actually. Troll. re your earlier threat to ...invade leg11aug territory.." By all means! a grubby student sofa always available!My PO in Norfolk was a big scarily dreadlocked dude who knows you..said you was alright.. 
When the going gets weird...
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16th October 2005, 10:01 PM
Thanx for the offer sir! Will certainly take you up on the offer sooner rather than later mate. Seems to me that training in field archaeology should run in tandem with academic input. Theory driven archaeology has to be the way to go.Plenty of farmers out there who had their livelihoods decimated by BSE and government strangleholds-I`m not convinced that it should be too difficult for unis to find decent field schools and morally/ethically/professionally, I believe they have a responsibility to do so.I wish you well-please put the word out, we need plenty more voices on here!
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17th October 2005, 05:32 PM
Will do sir. But student apathy's a tough one to crack, most people here more concerned about actually getting work than in the associated conditions, can't really blame them I guess. No-one wants to here the job they're working towards/becoming indebted for, is less than perfect!
I didn't mean to suggest that theory shouldn't be the driving force in archaeology, just picking up on the point you made earlier; that the majority of graduates are going to be looking-at least initially-for work in field units, where practical skills are essential elements of the job.if I was anti-academic I wouldn't be at uni!  Good luck with the conference, if you need some-one to fly poster this(unnamed!)uni, do let me know.
When the going gets weird...
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23rd October 2005, 09:35 PM
(first post so please go easy )
Having just done an archaeology degree the two things that astounded me were:-
1. Virually none of the students had any idea of what the job market was like or what the working conditions/payment would be should they get a job.
2. On the first training dig, good summer weather digging in gravelly sand, how many of them took one look into the trench and refused to go in because it was full of "mud".
Which, to my mind sort of suggests that many students choose archaeology because they think it'll be an easy/dossing degree rather than because they have any real desire to be archaeologists...
Thus, even if training is excellent (which I feel it mostly was on my degree) many people simply don't learn anything of practical use - they just want some letter after their names so that they can become trainee manages in a financial services company.
I should of course say that this is not my opinion of _all_ the students on my degree - some worked damn hard and and really applied them selves to getting the maximum out of it. However, I fear that these were the minority[:0].
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23rd October 2005, 09:54 PM
first off, hello and welcome, and we will try to be nice, I promise!
sadly, I think you are right, and the same thing was very evident when I was doing my degree, with a lot of people openly admitting that they had no intention of staying in the profession once they had got their degrees. Frustratingly, I was out of a job for rather a long time shortly after my degree because my local unit decided to keep one of these people on instead of me, knowing full well that they didn't want to do archaeology as their job (being blonde and flirting can get you a long way, I will say no more).
However, I don't know whether this situation is any more common for archaeology than for a lot of other degree subjects that are somehow seen as being a doss, and possibly, if the general standard of training did improve, maybe some of these "dossers" might be inspired. Doubtful, but anything is possible 
++ i spend my days rummaging around in dead people ++
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23rd October 2005, 10:20 PM
Greetings SRD! Welcome to the tube of truth!Know exactly what you mean.Congrats on graduating mate and I hope that subscribers here will be of assistance to you in ant way we can-just ask-no question is stupid either! One phrase I came up with years ago (during an increasingly rare flash of clarity) was this....
Are universities teaching archaeology students or, student archaeologists?
We had some similar types at my uni-they were convinced that a degree means an instant supervisory/managerial post and that dirt was optional.There is a whole skipload of info on here for prospective/newly liberated archies and, plenty of nice peeps who are only too willing to impart gems of wisdom so, please-just ask and-pass our web address around.More the merrier.Look forward to hearing how you get on mate.Good luck.
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24th October 2005, 05:51 PM
Ah yes Troll, I remember a few choice expressions on the faces of fellow undergrads faced with the prospect of working outside [:0] possibly in the rain [:0][:0]. Of our year I can count the number of currently working field archaeologists on one hand, and what-ever its faults the course did have some admirable elements.  I'm not completely certain, as others have said, that the 'dumbing down' issue is something that is either unique to archaeology, nor can it entirely be solved internally in the profession. For actual field archaeology courses, there needs to be a willingness to have units with either IFA (or whatever) proscribed content or unit involvement to at least expose the undergrads to the profession.
(I really have worked in the field)
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25th October 2005, 11:23 AM
According to the old "Spoerry Reports" from 2003 ther were approx 1100 students leaving uni with some form of qualification in Archaeology or associated discipline. Approx 10% of students ever work in the profession after graduation and very few of these stay in the profession for more than 2 years. We ould replace the entire profession "approx 6800) every 6 years.
Little Tim
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