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16th November 2005, 08:29 PM
I guess in 1man's list, I would qualify as "technical" staff because I certainly don't want to be a manager or a strict academic, and I do a specific area of work. However, in his categories, I would not need to be educated to degree level. Would love to know how I could have acquired the knowledge to do my job without doing at least a first degree (don't actually know any osteologists who don't also have a higher degree). They don't do apprenticeships in musculo-skeletal anatomy, palaeopathology and biometrics...
++ i spend my days rummaging around in dead people ++
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16th November 2005, 08:51 PM
Quote:quote:Originally posted by sniper
I could have acquired the knowledge to do my job without doing at least a first degree (don't actually know any osteologists who don't also have a higher degree). They don't do apprenticeships in musculo-skeletal anatomy, palaeopathology and biometrics...
Sniper is absolutely right Sniper. The archaeological profession doesn't at present provide such apprenticeships, but who knows....
My point was why should anyone lose 3 years salary to obtain an undergraduate degree, further years to gain post-graduate qualifications, run up a huge student debt to live and pay course fees just for the priviledge of studying. And then subsidise the profit margins of an archaeological unit that can't even be bothered to pay you a decent wage
I was trying to suggest that any other profession that required such specialism would 1) Probably sponsor the required study, or 2) Pay a salary that enabled individuals to recoup the cost of their study.
Archaeology seems at present to do neither.
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16th November 2005, 09:02 PM
agree kevin, just think it is dangerous to try and lump everyone, with all our specialisms, qualifications and experience, into a few categories of who should do degrees and who shouldn't. I was very lucky in getting a studentship to do my masters, and I wouldn't have been able to do it without that on the wages I was earning digging. I agree that the debts archs rack up are ridiculous compared to what we earn and apprenticeships would be a fantastic idea, but not necessarily for everything. Degrees are still going to be necessary for certain specialisms, but to say, as 1man did, that you should only be educated to degree level if you are going to be a manager can only demean those in the profession who don't see this as a career promotion
++ i spend my days rummaging around in dead people ++
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16th November 2005, 09:18 PM
Hi guys-Kevin first.Absolutely right. Professional qualified archs in the commercial world are shafted at every opportunity for profit. I do think however that now that the mass of us are such, the industry grown ups have a problem. You can poke someone with a stick for so long before they will turn and bite your arm off. An educated and well informed workforce will ultimately bite back so hard that those who sit on their hands and do nothing will find that both arms become removed.The industry captains are making the mistake that we are all stupid and, that we have somehow ceased to be members of the public.....watch this particular space 
Snipey-conditions will only change when we expose them.[8D]
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17th November 2005, 01:15 PM
If someone is sitting on their hands, surely it is rather difficult to bite their arms off?!
More seriously I think there is a lot of tilting at windmills going on here. I admire 1man1desk's bravery in making his point, it is a valid one and worth serious thought. Having said that I for one would definitely NOT advocate what I call the 'German' approach (having worked there in the past) where one guy aged 25 with a PhD and no experience is in charge of everyone else (including 50 year olds with 30 years experience but no PhD). And indeed on that particular project a former professor of archaeology was reduced to being the storekeeper mending wheelbarrows - but that was due to political changes in that particular country at that particular time and is another subject entirely.
27trowels is lucky to be at Bradford which is, as far as I am aware, the only UK university to offer a placement as part of its degree course. There should be a few more like that.
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17th November 2005, 01:37 PM
Quote:quote:1man 1desk appears to advocate the 'deckchair syndrome' of early 20th century archaeology where having a degree meant you got to sit down and order the oiks around and no degree meant you pushed a wheelbarrow
- from Kevin Wooldridge
Well, I did say in my post that I specifically was not advocating the potential system that I described.
What I was doing was trying to outline a potential middle way, between your proposal (that degrees are un-necessary) and the current system (in which an un-necessarily high proportion of the workforce are expected to have a degree, when it is not apparently necessary for their job).
Quote:quote: I guess in 1man's list, I would qualify as "technical" staff because I certainly don't want to be a manager or a strict academic, and I do a specific area of work. However, in his categories, I would not need to be educated to degree level.
- from Sniper
Well, the list was only an off the cuff idea, not a fully-worked-out system. Personally, I would view any finds/environmental/etc. specialist in the 'academic/professional' category, even if not university-based.
When I write specifications I usually require minimum qualifications for specialists, including a first degree in archaeology (or other relevant discipline; a second degree in the relevant specialism; and a proven record of publication in the specialism.
1man1desk
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17th November 2005, 01:50 PM
Quote:quote:to say, as 1man did, that you should only be educated to degree level if you are going to be a manager can only demean those in the profession who don't see this as a career promotion
- from Sniper
I didn't actually say that - I said that most other professions do that. In any case, 'manager/academic' roles can be a very wide category.
What I was responding to was Kevin Wooldridge's suggestion that degrees are an un-necessary burden, given the need to sacrifice 3 years and take on huge debts. I agree that some people in archaeology don't need that burden, but I do think that we need academically qualified people in the profession. What I was doing was starting a debate on what criteria you might use to define who needs a degree.
I agree (see previous posts) that a degree doesn't necessarily qualify anyone to do anything. Personally, I learnt how to do my job on the job and through in-service training, leading to non-degree vocational qualifications. Nevertheless, I think that my degree does provide an essential academic/intellectual background that would be much harder to obtain without going to Uni (although it can be done, and has been in quite a few cases).
1man1desk
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18th November 2005, 01:03 AM
I also happen to think that 1man1desk makes some extremely good points too!Not only that, I happen to admire his/her assertive and fair approach-even if I don`t agree on some issues.That surely is what BAJR is about.Open discussion.This is, as far as I`m aware, the only opportunity available for us all to sit around and conjur/unload/analyse on the same table (albeit without beer/nuts and bloody Rod Stewart blaring in the background).
For those of us who choose to contribute here, don`t forget that a wider unseen audience tunes in. New grads/universities etc tune in.Can only be a good thing! 
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