Thornborough "debate"

[Arthus]

I was hoping for a reply from Pixie or Venutius.

Where have they gone[?]

Arthus

[Venutius]

Busy working to make sure this quarry will not proceed.

Not much point in debating with those of already hardened and selective views.

Let me ask you a question.

Would you agree that the archaeological remains found on Ladybridge are an extension of the pits ad hearths found on Nosterfield Area 1?

Save the Thornborough Henge Complex - http://www.timewatch.org

[Arthus]

Dear Venutius and any of your interested comrades,

What do you mean by your question if I view the ?archaeological remains found on Ladybridge as an extension of the pits ? [and] hearths found ? [at] Nosterfield Area 1??

I think the pits and hearths found in a very wide area around the Henges suggest seasonal ritual/living activity, taking place over thousands of years in a wide area of ?ritual-landscape? around the Henges, in some way connected to the Henges.

When more pits are found (very few have been found so far), it would be an interesting study to see what % of the pits with secure dating evidence were in a position where the people who dug them could have had a direct view of the Henges.

To do this as big an area as possible would have to be protected from the destruction caused by quarries, ploughing and tourism etc and archaeology conducted over years and years (such as what has been occurring at Stonehenge).

To repeat myself

?It seems to me that the area around the Henges does contain valuable archaeology, which should continue to be studied and excavated over the coming years. Therefore, both the quarrying and deep ploughing should be stoped in the area even if it requires legal protection in the form of a new law.? (Posted - 19/11/2005 : 18:11:14) For the record I believe that a large area around the Henges should be the subject of a long-term study (similar to what is happening around Stonehenge) and that should begin ?now? i.e. as soon as possible.
And why should this study include excavation? Because we won?t be able to find anything out without it.
And why ?now?? Because the age-old human activity of altering the landscape will eventually (and in our speeded up world, sooner rather than later) destroy the remaining archaeology.
You might note that I also suggested careful reading of the evidence gathered in recent archaeological reports (what ever the conclusion of any report) could well help the campaign to save the Henges.
Hence I said, ?the protesters need to realise that the present dig at Nosterfield (even if one only judges it from its web page) is a neutral and professional operation, as likely to throw up evidence that can support their cause as it might produce evidence which can be used by the Quarry side.? (Posted - 19/11/2005 : 18:11:14)
I think preventing the ploughing should be a high priority for any campaign because the ploughing will destroy the archaeology quickly without any recording.

We cannot know what the future holds, current insane plans to build more and more roads could well continue and pressure on the land is sure to continue not to mention the coming effects of global warming. You only have to look at Australia to see how sheep and cows have destroyed vast tracts of land.?

Come on explain to me why my position of wanting to save the ritual landscape from quarrying and ploughing is so objectionable to you?

I really am genuinely puzzled.

And while you are about it, please outline clearly and politely your empirical arguments as to why you believe that I believe that ?so long as the developer can show the archaeology is being damaged, then a development should be allowed to go ahead regardless of its importance? and your statement that the archaeology I took part in at Nosterfield was ?shoddy?.

You really shouldn?t throw around such statements without carefully explaining your opinions. If you don?t explain why you think this then you risk being thought of as someone with a tendency to throw around unsupported insulting prejudicial statements.

Having taken part in hundreds of political campaigns over the years, I think its very important for a campaigner to be well informed, honest with the facts, able to give logical replies to alternative views (but as I said above I?m still not sure why you disagree with someone who agrees with you about the quarry) and its very important for them to be polite and refrain from personalised insults.

(Oh and Pixie, if you are still out there, are you going to ?elaborate? [see my last posting]?

Forgive me if I?m wrong but I feel you are behaving just like a politician (I apologise for being so insulting!).

Politicians never answer direct questions when they are threatened by the question and twist the facts (exaggerating, selectively quoting, and ?bending the stick?) to make facts fit their arguments.

I can see how you might think this an acceptable way to behave because in recent years it has been standard practice almost daily by politicians, interviewed by the media.

Now I will tell you why I think this is harmful to the person conducting arguments in this manner.

[Now this is my own personal philosophy, but indulge me].

I believe in the Aboriginal (and quite often mainstream Australian) concept of ?what goes around comes around? or put another way the Indian concept of ?Karma? or to use a Christian quote ?you reap what you sow?.

So if a person (such as a politician) knowingly twists the truth and is insulting to an opponent (for example Blair in his lies about Iraq) at some level the person knows what they are doing, and the resulting knowledge niggles and gnaws at their inner being causing them anger and resentment, which has a danger of leading to long-term psychological and physical harm.

So for the sake of your ?Karma?, your conscience, your sense of right and wrong or depending your outlook on life, perhaps your soul! [.Note reference to your soul is a joke], come clean and in clear, simple, polite English stop avoiding my perfectly reasonable questions.

Awaiting your reply, with great expectation, yours totally and honestly sincerely,

Arthus.















Arthus

[archae_logical]

Arthus

I spoke to Pixie the other day on another matter and know she is unable to reply at the moment as she is heavily involved in other work.

I too am very busy with Uni work amonst other things. One question strikes me however, if you are so used to campaigning have you done anything to help the Thornborough campaigners? Where were you when leaflets needed distributing and people needed the situation explaining to them?

Oh! and my conscience is perfectly fine thanks. How's yours.

E

[BAJR Host]

Please lets keep this civil...

I people would jsut quickly and quietly answer questions then we would not get into this... tit for tat - I am not answering until you answer senario.. OR I'm too busy to answer ... etc... If a question is asked (by anyone) it is polite to answer or explain why you can't answer now, but will answer later... or explain why you will not answer... etc etc. etc.... Debate can't continue with a.. "Just because..."



Another day another WSI?

[archae_logical]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

Please lets keep this civil...

I people would jsut quickly and quietly answer questions then we would not get into this... tit for tat - I am not answering until you answer senario.. OR I'm too busy to answer ... etc... If a question is asked (by anyone) it is polite to answer or explain why you can't answer now, but will answer later... or explain why you will not answer... etc etc. etc.... Debate can't continue with a.. "Just because..."


Another day another WSI?

I apologise if I have been uncivil to anyone. However I am in the middle of a BA course with assignments due in and exams in May. I do not have time at present to read through Arthus' very long post to answer all the points. Maybe I will have more time in the summer break if he can wait that long. I'm sure that goes for Pixie too.

E

[BAJR Host]

Loverly...

Good luck with the course..

We are all busy I fear... I have an IFA conference, A BAJR COnference, 2 websites to create, BAJR II to finish, a guide to Digital Photography to complete, the weekly podcast news, 16 suits of cardboard armour to create for Saturday for my YAC club, a set of illustrations to complete, a Display Board for a Hillfort to finish off for next Friday, a 40 grand HLF application to get in by the end of March ... etc etc etc... oh and a life.. not forgetting the WHS trowel, my council work, a talk on GArden archaeology for 29th MArch, etc etc....... [:0]

Thanks to everyone for contributing here.. and thanks for just communicating...

All I am trying to say is that we are all busy in one way or other, but that does not mean we stop talking


Another day another WSI?

[archae_logical]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

Loverly...

Good luck with the course..

Thanks.

quote:
etc etc etc... oh and a life..

Another day another WSI?

You have time for a life too!!! What's one of those?

E
(just back from a lecture on plate tectonics.... for tourism? )

[Arthus]

Dear Archae-logical,

The reply to your question about what I am doing to try and prevent the quarry (and the ploughing), can be found on the same page as your posting (its only a little way up) and was posted on 12/03/2006: 21:32:39 (look at the very bottom if you don?t have time to read it).

It was a reply to Pixies same question too me, I suppose she hasn?t seen it since when you talked to her she would have told you about it.

As to your comment about conscience, forgive me if I?m wrong but I suspect you see me as the enemy because I am an archaeologist who has worked at the Henges.

Is this what you mean?

If you come to this conclusion, please explain when you have time why you believe this.

Once again, in relation to what I perceive as prejudice, I refer you to the posting above and more on page 17.

But it is really unacceptable attack a persons opinions and and then admit that you have not even read their idea?s.

When you have time, and I can wait as long as you want (summers OK), I?d appreciate you reading all the postings, including mine and then replying (if the debates gone off the message board by then, you can always start a new one simply to reply, alternately I?m happy to talk to anyone over the phone, or meet up if its possible to arrange it via the host).

When you apologise for, being ?uncivil to anyone?, I presume you are apologising for being uncivil to me?

If so, then I accept your apology.

It?s been really puzzling me, why Ventutius, Pixie and yourself have replied to my postings as if I'm the 'enemy'..

But I think I?ve worked it out.

Is it that you all think I?m arguing for the archaeology to be excavated so that the impediment to the quarry can be removed?

Do you really think I?m a closet quarry supporter!!

Can I give you all my word that this is not true (if you had read all my postings from the first to the last, without preconceived prejudice you would have known this) and I have already clearly stated that I am against the quarry for ?other reasons? unconnected with the archaeology.

So please. I politely encourage you all to reply to my specific questions and not attack me for opinions you have decided I must have, when in fact I don?t have them.

So, I?ll end there, in comradeship with the campaign to ?Save the Henges? (or more accurately the Henges and the ritual landscape surrounding the Henges) and patiently await Ventutius and Pixies reply, whilst happy to wait for yours in the summer.




Arthus

[BAJR Host]

And so I hope we can all stand together (using whatever suits us best) to prevent any further quarrying.

I must take my hats off to the Campaign, where people power won over corporate gain... I know it aint over yet.... but as ever, you have BAJRs support... Neil Campling also has my full support as a DC archaeologist doing a very difficult job, and succeeding to walk the line.

Good luck and hope that DisneyLand HengeWorld does not spoil the victory

Another day another WSI?