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1st September 2006, 04:43 PM
Looking at the extremes people will go to to avoid archaeological conditions....
I have jsut talked to my planners about a 17th century Mill, which I 'would' have requested a building survey (this happened before I was brought in as a council archaeologist) ... sadly it burnt down in what was described as an electrical fire... - oh woe and thrice woe says the owner... My loverly building... but wiping tears from his eyes he bravely decides to rebuild without the need for listed building works... however the fire investigators then found that the electric company had cut off supply to the building 2 weeks before the fire ..
Does anyone have (remember no names etc etc) any stories of extremes that developers or clients go to in order to adviod archaeology - make them funny... it is Friday after all.
Another was when I was a contractor - and imagine my delight when turning up on site and finding the entire area JCB'd out to a depth of 2 metres ... (over the weekend) .... Just to help me get started...!
Another day another WSI?
For really I think that the poorest he that is in England hath a life to live, as the greatest he
Thomas Rainborough 1647
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1st September 2006, 05:21 PM
A relative of mine (who was struggling to adhere to various planning regs for a barn conversion) was a little bemused to here of a neighbour with similar issues and its resolution. The structure inexplicably became unstable after a freak accident involving a runaway bulldozer. Happens quite frequently :face-huh:
Desiderate le fritture con quello?
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1st September 2006, 06:41 PM
Wasn't said neighbour a local councilor?
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2nd September 2006, 10:53 AM
Not so much a naughty developer, but I recall a story heard a few years back.....
...An archaeological unit (nameless for obvious reasons) were asked to undertake an evaluation of an industrial site (lets call it a 'watermill' for conveniences sake), prior to vast amounts of eurocash being pumped into restoring the one surviving, but derelict, brick building and converting it into a visitor centre/heritage centre/museum. At stake was also the potential of several years archaeological work uncovering and interpreting the various industrial structures buried on the site and an ongoing contract role managing the culture/heritage side of the new facility.
Such an 'important' project could not be entrusted to the care of an underling and therefore 'senior' unit manager takes charge of both planning and field work. On the Friday afternoon said manager rings up hire company and arranges for 12 tonner, dumper and drivers to be on site first thing Monday morning.
Come Monday morning, senior manager sets off in plenty of time to arrive at site, but being slightly out of touch (long time since last in the field) fails to appreciate the traffic jam in small local town, the roadworks on A999 and arrives at heritage site approximately 40 minutes late. He notices that both machine and dumper have engines running and impressed with their eagerness, strides across site to show the drivers the locations of the evaluation trenches.
'Sorry I'm late' he says 'I was held up in traffic'.
That's alright' said the machine driver 'We figured you were running late. So we got on with a bit of a start and knocked over that old brick ruin in the corner!!'
Imagine phone call to local conservation officer asking whether there were any other suitable 'heritage' buildings in local area that might serve as alternative to proposed 'watermill' culture centre...
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4th September 2006, 12:48 PM
It is an old joke about buildings suddenly catching fire as it is raelised that there is an archaeological element to the planning condition. Indeeed a friend was telling me of a projecty he was engaged on where three 18th century building in very close proximity to one another (but not that close) burnt down over one weekend, a lightning strike being blamed for initiating the conflagration. On another matter having been engaged by a developer to undertake archaeological watching brief works following from an evaluation of a warehouse site, the client having agreed to costs and to have instructed site contractors to liase with archaeologists over timetable, imagine archaeologists surprise to get a call on following Monday morning from site contractor saying "we have dug the foundation trenches you wanna come and have a look?"
We all know it happens, it is never very funny though.
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4th September 2006, 12:58 PM
True. However, have heard of a site being entirely stripped before. That is entertaining
As an aside, has anyone any knowledge of action taken after such an event, or do any curators on the forum have standard responses? Crying into pint, nashing teeth and renting clothes etc taken for granted.
Desiderate le fritture con quello?
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4th September 2006, 01:12 PM
sadly the old.... er..... er.... bugger....
though I did once close down an entire opencast mine.. (only to be told I could not really do that.... oh... says I .... er... I just have!) I was young and foolish... but shows what you can do with a steely eye!
They had helpfully removed 12ft of overburden from the site - of around 1km square !
Another day another WSI?
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4th September 2006, 03:40 PM
>has anyone any knowledge of action taken after such an event, or do any curators on the forum have standard responses?
I believe curators can set planning enforcement onto developers for breaches of condition. Iâve heard tales of a curators who, with the support of their Local Planning Authority, have been able to get developers to excavate an area equal in size to the one they have built on/trashed. This is achieved by refusing to sign the site off (i.e. advising the LPA not to discharge the archaeological condition) until the work has been done.
Un-discharged planning conditions cause problems for developers, especially if they want to sell the site. The only problem is that curators need eyes in the back of their heads to keep track of whoâs built what, where and when so that they can report people to enforcement for not doing what they were supposed to. You also need to have an archaeology-sympathetic planning department or enforcement officer for this sort of approach to work otherwise it's an uphill struggle.
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4th September 2006, 10:43 PM
So many of you seem to believe that we have huge powers which are only a pen swipe away. Curators are only ADVISORS it is up to planners to make the decision whether to discharge the condition or enforce it. If evaluations are being undertaken pre-determination we can issue a brief and agree a WSI if this is not followed then there is nothing which can be done as one would assume that the landowner has given their permission for the work. All that can be done in this situation is when a planning application come in for the site is to advise the planner that the evaluation has been inadequate according to the impact. The applicant is free to supply contractors consultants etc who can equally claim that the work is adequate. The planner then has to make a judgment.
Recently I have been dealing with an application which was deferred for an evaluation to be undertaken. The applicant and their contractor clearly had no intention of evaluating the site for any archaeology present and simply ignored the specification once it was apparent that the work could not be completed to the developer's financial timetable and simply chased the answers required by the structural engineers. Despite the obvious inadequacy of the evaluation the contractors were happy to argue the opposite. In this case, I am happy to say, I won. This was due to the planning officer supporting me in this case.
Enforcing against developers is easy with listed building consent, if the planner, and the council support you. It is a criminal offence to breach listed building consent. The standard archaeological condition of no work prior to the agreement of a scheme of archaeological works us agreed is very useful. Any evidence of development work is a clear breach of condition. If anyone buys the building with undischarged LBC conditions then they are liable to be prosecuted for them also; the crime runs with the ownership of the building and at the time of purchase their solicitor would identify this in the search.
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5th September 2006, 08:54 AM
I agree HB. As discussed on one of Troll's hypothetical threads, its all down to what's enforcable and whether there is a will.
Perhaps all curators should be given hypnotism lessons...look in to my eyes, not around my eyes etc.....Issue a stop notice....and you're back in the room. Flipant, I know [:o)]
Desiderate le fritture con quello?
