Help BAJR and the PAS at Thornborough

[tom wilson]

Hello Mr. Field Walker, nice to meet you.
This strand is about a particular meeting of a specific group of metal detectorists in a single, very important place. Please don't get the idea that it is about professional archaeologists as a group talking down about all metal detectorists. We are all individuals: skilled or not, conscientious or complacent.

Thus far, no one on this list has given any information about the individuals attending this event, or the standards of recording that they will be working to. Without that information it makes it impossible to assess whether it's a good idea or not. If you know more about the rally and its organisers, I'd be pleased to hear it.

Cheers,

Tom

[BAJR Host]

Hello there as well..

Tom is right.... this is a particular issue about a particular field... it is.... shall we say.... quite a hot potatoe from everyones point of view. And good old BAJR is stepping into the fire!

Hopwever, you will find that the attitudes of them and us are wilting under the banner of cooperation... now it is becoming perfectly normal for MDs to assist Archaeologists and visa versa...

thre are of course die-hard Detectroists and archaeologists who would rather chew their legs off rather than face up to change.... but they are an increasing minority... Thre are legitimate claims from both groups about the rights and wrongs.... but they are being discussed and solved.. bit by bit... Recording for example is a basic.... location is required.... but anyway... I should heed my own advice and say... lets continue this path... if you will be at the RAlly....come and say hello

Another day another WSI?

[DaveE]

Happy to provide Tom with more info, though the first thing to get clear is that the recording and the rally, although obviously linked, are not the same. The rally happens regardless; I am arranging the recording precisely because the rally is already happening, not to enable, justify, condone or condemn it, but to record data that could otherwise be lost.

The rally itself is being organised by Christopher Bourne-Arton (the landowner and member of North Yorkshire County Council's Thornborough Henges Project Steering Group) and Norman Smith (a detectorist who has organised a number of rallies in the area). I would expect around 3-400 people will attend from all over the UK (with a handful from abroad), mostly but not all detecting themselves; it is also a social occasion so some will bring their families, and various metal detecting related retailers will probably also be there. The detectorists will be free to detect all the land the landowner makes available, apart from any scheduled areas which will be cordoned off. There is no structure to where they search, other than that the organisers open fields in a phased way.

This is all legitimate and the only legal requirement to record/report anything is for items which may be classified as Treasure under the 1996 Treasure Act. However the organisers have also invited the local representatives of the Portable Antiquities Scheme to attend and organise recording, and will strongly encourage recording at the rally and support the recording through provision of equipment. Therefore the 2 local Finds Liaison Officers will be there, supported by maybe half a dozen volunteers (students, members of local community archaeology groups, and of course David and anyone else from this forum who wants to help).

We will try and record everything pre-1700 that we see (PAS's usual policy unless there is a specific research project we know about, eg Russian bag seals), and the more support we have the better the standard of those records will be, and the more we are likely to see in the first place (finders get discouraged from reporting when they have to queue for ages to see us). The basic record will include an identification of the object, physical description, physical measurements, digital images, and 6 figure NGR findspot (10 figure if the finder has GPS). When we get time afterwards this will all be uploaded onto the PAS national database, and from there to the North Yorkshire HER, and also to specific research projects (eg VASLE).

Recording is voluntary but from past experience most, though by no means all, rally participants will show us their finds, though most of these will be non-recordable in PAS terms (post-1700). I would expect we will still record some 200 or more individual finds from all periods (pre-1700). We will also be advising finders on conservation issues, the importance of recording, and how to record (many finders will never have recorded a find before), as well as trying to put people's individual finds into a wider context.

I hope this helps people understand what is happening, get in touch if I can help further, or if you want to help at the rally.

Dave
PAS North & East Yorkshire

[BAJR Host]

And here is a reply from Norman, who is organisaing the rally.

I look forward to meeting him and others while down there

I am the man with two heads who has organised the controversial Thornborough Henges rally and having noticed postings on your site I would like the opportunity to defend/promote my hobby.

I am an independent detectorist who is currently assisting in the archaeological research on the roadworks on the A66 and have an excellent woring relationship with the archaeologists involved, and I have worked very closely with PAS at several rallies over recent years, and have formed a strong relationship with them. I am also a strong advocate of metal detection being a part of research on all archaeological surveys, and of archaeologists being present at all detecting rallies.

I feel there are strong objections to my hobby because archaeologists in certain quarters feel the hobby is linked to theft, damage, e-bay and finds not being recorded.I have detected for 10 years and do not know of any detectorist who goes on land or known sites without authority. I know of no detecting rallies that have caused damage to any sites, where detectorists dig to a maximum of 6 inches on land that has been ploughed up to a depth of 2 feet. Detectorists do sell on e-bay but then again Cymru Museum in Wales have displayed up to 1,000 Roman coins for sale on the site this year.(whats the difference).In relation to recording I know of no rallies in the recent few years that were not attended by PAS, except one held by me in Wragby,Lincolnshire, last weekend, when PAS elected to go fieldwalking instead of attending. (whoops, they misssed loads and we found a previously unrecorded Roman site). Never mind they may have found some paottery and flint when fieldwalking!!

Please come to Thornborough, share a few drinks, talk to us, listen to us, observe us, make new friends and maybe you will be pleasantly surprised. We are here to stay and will eventually be part of every archaeological survey. We are a vital facility available to all archaeologists free of charge.

Thanks for listening.

Norman Smith

Another day another WSI?

[Paul Barford]

quote:Originally posted by Norman Smith/BAJR Host

Cymru Museum in Wales have displayed up to 1,000 Roman coins for sale on the site this year.(whats the difference).

I suspect that in fact you mean the "Sygun Museum of Wales", a private collection which is part of the Red Dragon Heritage centre and Sygun Copper Mine tourist attraction in Snowdonia. It's a private collection containing stuff bought from dealers (and so those who are supplied by artefact hunters). Here's their current offer http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZmuseumofwalesQQhtZ-1. "We have no connection to the National Museum & Galleries of Wales in Cardiff". - that (unnamed) curator must have an extensive expertise to issue certificates of authenticity in so many different fields, from oil paintings to Chinese porcelain, oriental metalwork to MDd artefacts....

Here's their webpage http://sygun-coppermine.co.uk/index.htm

So no difference, these are artefacts from the market going back on the market. Have a look how many have any kind of provenance .....

Is that the "museum" you had in mind?

quote:
We are here to stay

Only as long as the rest of a 60 million public tolerates this kind of use of their archaeological record. And given the great public support for protecting the landscape around the Thornborough Henges, by the thoughtless choice of venue at this time, I reckon detectorists may well have scored a massive home goal in retaining that public sympathy and support.

You are right, many of us feel the hobby IS "linked to theft, damage, e-bay and finds not being recorded". In fact it is clear that in a certain sense it is. Between 60% (latest PAS estimate) and 80% (my estimate) of detectorists do not record any of their finds with the PAS, and of the rest we dont not know how many report anywhere near all of their finds. The hobby is closely linked (as a supplier and the collecting side of it as a consumer) to the antiquities market, and undeniably so is the "nighthawking" and trade in other illicit artefacts that undeniably goes on. Rallies do damage the evidence of artefact scatters, try reading up about the Marston Moor Rally to take one infamous example. Very few finds were ever reported to the PAS from the infamous "near Avebury" detecting rally last year, hundreds of people decended on the land, hoovered up the artefacts and then disappeared with them, most of them never to be seen again. Ask the FLO. Another home goal. Just inviting along a few archaeologists to this one does not solve the general problem.

And actually, I know quite a few archaeologists who know how to use their own metal detectors perfectly well as a survey tool.

Paul Barford

[Paul Barford]

So, how did it go? How many detectorists turned up? How many archaeologists were on hand to record the finds taken? Where did the artefact hunting take place (how close to the henges was land available)? What percentage of the finds made do you feel were reported? Were any flint scatters recorded in more detail than had been known before? What archaeological outreach were you able to do amongst the artefact hunters who turned up and what were the most frequent questions/misgivings raised by them ? If you were to do it again, what would you do differently?

Paul Barford

PS on Rally UK http://rallyuk.org.uk/forum3/viewtopic.php?t=2508, very late last night a news item was posted by a forum staff member (somewhat belatedly one would have thought) announcing that Tarmac's quarying application had been refused... So much for this "interest in the past" that is supposed to be behind artefact hunting, if some of them had not even bothered to find out anything about the site beforehand... It prompted this response - "Glad to hear that their application has been refused!! theres enough being lost as it! "
Ironic or what?

[BAJR Host]

Will be reporting on the whole thing very soon... a full account

but I can say there were around 400 detectorists and flint scatters were not recorded - more later.

Another day another WSI?

[Paul Barford]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

Will be reporting on the whole thing very soon... a full account

Thanks, looking forward to hearing it...

[garybrun]

I'm looking forward to a good and unbiased report as I have come to expect from Mr Hosty. The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence.

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[Steve-B]

quote:Only as long as the rest of a 60 million public tolerates this kind of use of their archaeological record.

I see your record is still scratched Paul...

Personally, I reckon the majority of the 60 million people in this country have more important things to worry about.

I look forward to your report David.

http://www.detector-distribution.co.uk