BAJR follow-up to Petition

[drpeterwardle]

What should the pay be.

I think this merits a thread on its own.

I discussed charge out rates this at the BAJR conference.

M300572 said correct me if this is b*ll*cks. So here goes

a salary of 22,000 results from the calculations not 21k.

they than said "plus the income tax and NI costs to the employee a digger would cost around £130" this therefore equates to about another 8k and thus on these figures a salary of 28.4k. This about double the current level.

The overhead for employing somebody is about double the salary.

Peter

[Orkynowot]

So are we saying then that starting wage should be £21,000, being only a digger I have no idea of how costings are work out, would it be a viable target to aim for, can units actually push for this sort of minimum pay scale, as this also pushed up the wages of everyone else, the effect would br immenses. Maybe we could look at payscales in teaching industry as a way of looking at structuring pay.

May god go with you in all the dark places you must walk.

[voice of reason]

Simple answer to Orkynowot - no.

Peter has gone some way to explaining how rates are devised - and he is a bit conservative about 2x salary. Whatever, a £6k increase is 40% on rates. Fine in a controlled/regulated market, but who is going to be the first to put up their charge rates by 40%? IFA to impose on RAOs? - see the dash from RAO status to ensure you don't go bust. Then where are we?

Baby and bathwater time. This has to be incremental and people have to understand the realities of the business environment.

[BAJR Host]

I do agree with the incremental and sustainable rise. A reasonable rise over a period of 5 (or 3 years) to a 'what we are worth' level. Add to that an extended payscale, removing the tight bottom to top increase, which provide no real incentive to move up the tree. Add to that staff that are capable and "worth" the payrise. Where measurable and accessed skills are 'rewarded' - Can a digger take photos? Draw a Matrix? Do levelling? Set out a trench? Can a supervisor write a section report? manage people? Can a PO understand Development control ? Are they able to control small budgets? No the score about H&S etc.... What does it take to be a G3 digger? And what is that worth?

Training.... Professionalism ...... Pay Rates .... Integration into the whole -- Become a Historic Enviroment Professional.. one of many types...

Sounds sensible? With Govt. Support.. then it might just be.... we have to show where we fit into the Historic Env... whats in it for people who use our skills.

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[voice of reason]

the progression idea has to be the one to follow I think - the opportunity to progress year on year, across all grades of staff. This certainly exists for higher level grades in all large companies (less sure about smaller outfits?). It seems particularly needed at 'digger' level which is generally currently constrained to one, or maybe two if you are lucky, points on a salary scale, so you end up with the situation where a new graduate with no field experience except a few weeks uni training dig is very quickly paid the same as someone with a full skill set with a nice balanced portfolio of experience. That simply can't be fair.

I would also say there needs to be a realisation of the need to learn and take some personal responsibility for developing your own abilities. As Host says, you have to be worth the cash.

[Tim]

"I would also say there needs to be a realisation of the need to learn and take some personal responsibility for developing your own abilities. As Host says, you have to be worth the cash."

Thats the Catch 22 (for units and individuals)
Low income = difficulty of paying for personal training and development



"Freedom of ideas is one thing, freedom of the purse is quite another". Edward Harris

[voice of reason]

it doesn't have to cost money - borrow and read books, look at reports produced by your company, talk to people, be interested in what the specialists have to say about your site. Aim to try and get someone to teach a new skill on site.

having said all that, there appears to be a real cultural/generational difference growing about reading or learning about archaeology outside work hours.

push for training, don't wait for it to come to you

[BAJR Host]

Now I am getting worried (I keep agreeing with VOR) - I did not get where I was today by waiting to be trained, I never saw it as a right but a privilege. Etc

I learned from people in my own time, because I knew that to get ahead I would have to take my future into my own hands.

I read books about the period of site I was working on, I learned from surveyors who were only too willing to explain - I then went on to teach others about anything I knew. (like how to set up a EDM in under a minute ) etc


Todays archaeology is more complicated, and formalised training sessions would be good for employer and employee as well. I would prefer to see half day training on use of camera… how to set up a level… whats the minimum for a plan….. locating a site… laying out a trench…. Etc…. basic skills that can be verified and completed… entered into a Skills passport and transferable… These schemes are appearing or have already appeared (I know of a few that use them) but this has to be a push from both Company and Employee… both meeting in the middle…. One willing to train… one willing to learn independently too. If we wait for anyone else to do it… you could wait a long long time…. Training ! Pay ….. Professional!


"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Gog]

Totally agree. There are times when I feel like the school swot for volunteering information about a site or period or whatever. This is only with a minority of diggers in my experience, but there certainly seems to be a clutch of people out there who don't have any real interest in archaeology or history - so why do they do it?

[Tim]

All that is true but you are discussing extremely basic techniques which you should have learnt at uni and are entry level skills. For anything above that you will have to travel, use laboratories/ expensive equipment and either use university libraries buy/photocopy your own copies of books and get vast quanties of experience "handling" the material in your chosen speciality/technique, probably learning on the job being supervised by somebody more qualified and experienced than yourself. This is beyond most peoples resources, particularly when the only time and opportunity people have to train is during unemployment when their financial resources are low.



"Freedom of ideas is one thing, freedom of the purse is quite another". Edward Harris