Time Team and Ainsbrook Hoard

[Austin Ainsworth]

Gary,

finds in the topsoil have been an issue for archaeologists for a number of years, their migration from archaeological contexts and their use as identfiers of potential sites is not a new issue. Studies have shown that topsoil finds do not migrate very far from the point of deposition, therefore all finds regardless of their 'found' environment, not just the non-ferrous metallic component of a finds assemblage, are of interest to archaeologists.

It is of increasing value for field archaeologists to have a CSCS card, perhaps if detectorists also held a similar H&S qualification they could demonstrate that they understood a similar level of basic site awareness.

Detectorists may enjoy a similar level of professional respect as archaeologists if they undertook a degree course in their subject, if such a thing exists. If not, build the metal detector hobby to a point where it stops being a hobby and becomes a discipline in its own right. You would have to build this level of interest to a point where universities are willing to offer courses in the subject, this took archaeology many years to achieve so be prepared to lobby hard.

A DVD advising archaeologists on the correct metal detecting machinery to buy and its usage would be most helpful, perhaps you could make this DVD in conjunction with the many qualified archaeologists who are already metal detector owners and who use metal detectors on archaeological sites as a part of their normal working day.

If you ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow, you need buttermilk and cheese and an equilateral chainsaw. Half Man Half Biscuit

[BAJR Host]

Fear Not mr A.

GAry and I will be working together on this one... so it will involve both Pro archaeologists and Pro Detectorists...

this may be the start of a host of training DVDs...

How to watch JCBs... Arguing with Developers...

Slagging off Consultants etc... nah seriously... stuff like Survey... Photography ... Site drawing.. etc....

perhaps it is unfair to ask all detectorists to get some sort of degree (many have qualifications in archaeology already - like Peter Twinn who spoke at the BAJR conference) but it is a hobby... like the thousands of vollys who don't have an ology in archaeology... but bring particular skills to a project...

I am happy for people who know what they are doing to help me... and visa versa.. The Available to Detect Map will be coming in 2008... where Units or individuals can find detectorists who are willing to give up their time to assist us..


"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[tom wilson]

Gary,
I'm rather irritated to come back after trying to placate Oz, saying 'I'm sure Gary's point wasn't a general criticism', only to see you've said 'I accuse all archaeologists in my view of professional negligence'. Well thanks for that; this response is tempered by a few very deep breaths.

I think you are somewhat optimistic in your expectations of what metal detectorists can bring to an ongoing excavation. Unstratified finds aren't really all that useful when it comes to answering the type of research questions this kind of work asks. The results of metal detectoring can undoubtedly be used in many other interesting kinds of research, but all of which sadly fall out of the remit of developer funding. Metal detectoring is also a great method for finding sites (on infrastructure schemes, for instance) and MDs are used, and paid, to do that.

You also seem optimistic in your understanding of what we as professional archaeologists can achieve. OK, so MDs might be available for free, but that doesn't mean the organisation comes for free. Is it worth it? Quite possibly not, considering all the other things one might achieve with that time. Should I spend what spare time I can scrape up organising volunteers to try and locate unstratified finds, or reading more of the bottomless pile of journals relating to the site, or talking to experts in obscure aspects of the data? Yes, I should do all of these things, but I like to go home to my bed sometimes.

Also, would you mind easing off on the inverted snobbery, by the way. It's as unfounded as it is counter productive.

Finally, to answer your strangely exasperated query of what I want of you, I asked you to comment on how you thought the various detectorists were portrayed on last night's Time Team (anyone remember that?) and the implications of that. I wasn't having a dig (if you'll pardon the pun).

freeburmarangers.org

[garybrun]

quote:Originally posted by Austin Ainsworth

Gary,

finds in the topsoil have been an issue for archaeologists for a number of years, their migration from archaeological contexts and their use as identfiers of potential sites is not a new issue. Studies have shown that topsoil finds do not migrate very far from the point of deposition, therefore all finds regardless of their 'found' environment, not just the non-ferrous metallic component of a finds assemblage, are of interest to archaeologists.

It is of increasing value for field archaeologists to have a CSCS card, perhaps if detectorists also held a similar H&S qualification they could demonstrate that they understood a similar level of basic site awareness.

Detectorists may enjoy a similar level of professional respect as archaeologists if they undertook a degree course in their subject, if such a thing exists. If not, build the metal detector hobby to a point where it stops being a hobby and becomes a discipline in its own right. You would have to build this level of interest to a point where universities are willing to offer courses in the subject, this took archaeology many years to achieve so be prepared to lobby hard.

A DVD advising archaeologists on the correct metal detecting machinery to buy and its usage would be most helpful, perhaps you could make this DVD in conjunction with the many qualified archaeologists who are already metal detector owners and who use metal detectors on archaeological sites as a part of their normal working day.

If you ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow, you need buttermilk and cheese and an equilateral chainsaw. Half Man Half Biscuit

Thanks Austin... some very good points there.
I thought the studies showed that they did migrate ( I'm talking about under the plough).
I don't pertain to be an archaeologist and know the ins and outs of archaeology. But I am willing to learn along with many other fellow detectorists. But it needs to be spelt out not in a non condincending way. Down to earth talk and that my interest in heritage is a valid as your own. Many detecorists are basic working class people.. you cant talk in degree speak (this is not meant to be offencive)the message needs to be down to earth and with respect for the person you are talking too. Britarch is a hard place if you cant talk the talk.

I work in the Event business and can communicate with any director and meet him at his own level (on forums I am not that clever as my writing abilities leave a lot to be desired). You are passionate in what you do and stand up for what you believe as do I and many others like us. But too many detecting is a hobby and just a hobby. We can debate that it is a damaging hobby... and in the wrong hands is a lethal machine to the heritage but its still gets us back to the divisions and brings nothing forward.

I was talking to David about creating a national database of detectorists who would be willing to help on archaeological digs. Maybe some form of online training would be of benefit and cover "site awareness". Does the amateur archaeologists have this regarding HS???

The DVD will be produced later in the year with well known archaeologists and is on the drawing board. Maybe a separate thread on what people would like to see would be of benefit?



Website for responsible Metal Detecting
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording Our Heritage For Future Generations.

[garybrun]

quote:Originally posted by tom wilson


You also seem optimistic in your understanding of what we as professional archaeologists can achieve. OK, so MDs might be available for free, but that doesn't mean the organisation comes for free. Is it worth it? Quite possibly not, considering all the other things one might achieve with that time. Should I spend what spare time I can scrape up organising volunteers to try and locate unstratified finds, or reading more of the bottomless pile of journals relating to the site, or talking to experts in obscure aspects of the data? Yes, I should do all of these things, but I like to go home to my bed sometimes.

So if its not worth it then why all the talk about "record this and record that"? You do owe the heritage record the "full record" whether it be practical or not.

You earn your living as an archaeologist and I agree you should be paid and have free time like everyone else to spend with your family. I spend £1000's of pounds on my hobby... be it machines and Internet sites to promote responsible recording and try and encourage better relationships with heritage professionals. I would like to not sit on archaeological forums arguing the existence of what I do and ask for recognition for my hobbies achievements in contributing to the heritage record.
The snobbishness within archaeological circles does exist... even though you might not like the term and it does more damage to the heritage record than you know by alienating so many people.

I'm not sorry I ruffle a few feathers with my plane speak but it is said with all honesty. Finsih the rest of my quote and not just take out the bits that fit your argument.



Website for responsible Metal Detecting
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording Our Heritage For Future Generations.

[Austin Ainsworth]

Tom,

rest assured, you're efforts at mediation were successful, at least for me, my posts earlier in this debate were based on my opposition to one-sided comments which ignored reality in favour of a biased partisan opinion. My position is that detectorists are here and will continue to be here, we have a choice; engage with them or not. In other European countries anti-detectorist legislation is much more stringent than in the UK, this has not stopped the indiscriminate looting of the national heritage of those countries. If draconian laws aren't the answer then mediation and rapprochement must be, in short we must work with detectorists because we have no other reasonable course of action to take. This, however, does not mean bending over backwards and allowing every and any unsupported statement by detectorists against the archaeological community to go unchallenged.

If you ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow, you need buttermilk and cheese and an equilateral chainsaw. Half Man Half Biscuit

[garybrun]

You couldn't resit it could you!
There was no ill-informed bigotry on my part at all.
You would not accept my statement or my reasoning for not naming names on Davids forum and accused me of making unsupported statements which ignored reality in favour of a biased partisan opinion. Am I just to bend over backwards and let you call into question my integrity and let your statement go unchallenged?
You chose to read into my words what you wanted to see. I tried to explain to you in a polite manner and get the subject back on track. Yet you continued to insist I break the forum rules.

I quote from one of the posts..
"Boy could I spill the beans and shame many an ARCHAEOLOGIST for their incompetence in mishandling what started as a very postive venture that took the best part of four years of my life. So much more happened after the cameras stopped rolling! Good thing to, coz, as far as I'm concerned, the system put in place to cater for such discoveries failed at the final hurdle and you don't want to see that on national television!"

Debate that without one-sided comments which ignore reality in favour of biased partisan opinion!!

I say again... what can be done to bring skills and experiences together to enhance the heritage record.



Website for responsible Metal Detecting
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording Our Heritage For Future Generations.

[tom wilson]

Gary, I don't think I have misrepresented you by quoting only parts of your posts, so I'll continue. It's common practice.

'You do owe the heritage record the "full record" whether it be practical or not.'
Amen to that. Unfortunately, what we are allowed to do on developer-funded projects gets called sampling, by which the powers that be mean not digging everything. Bang goes the full record right there, and if you visit any site that the county archaeologist has signed off you will see half excavated features all over the place, and ditches typically with only 10% dug. No-one likes this much, but that's how much convention decrees is enough to get a good idea of what was going on, and a reasonable cost to ask of the developer.

'I say again... what can be done to bring skills and experiences together to enhance the heritage record'.
Well, you could give us a detectorist's view of how last night's program represented/reflected your (unpaid) (pre-)occupation and those involved in this specific case. Letting those of us not involved in detecting know that might be very insightful (and therefore constructive). I have asked twice already though, so I'll go to bed now.

[garybrun]

Im sorry Tom I got the names mixed up... my post was to Austin.

quote:Austin what do you want off me??
I have already stated that I will not write on the forum the name of the person for legal reasons. I will not be goaded into doing so either. Its is David who would be liable... I will not do it.
I have no way changed the "tenor" of the original discussion.

I keep going back too or trying to take us back to the original point of this thread. How can "WE" promote the sharing of knowledge and each others expertize. This is what this thread is about. This is what Bajr is about and why I visit this site.

Website for responsible Metal Detecting
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording Our Heritage For Future Generations.

[Austin Ainsworth]

Gary,

you are as fervent in defense of your position as I am in mine. Firstly, lets lay this idea of archaeologists as tweedy, beardy middle-class intellectuals to rest. The MSC programme dating from the 1980s introduced many working-class people to the world of professional archaeology, some of those went on to gain degrees, some didn't. As a result, professional commercial archaeology now contains many people in senior positions who have achieved their current status based on experience, talent and on-site training; I, until I left professional commercial archaeology, was one of them. I did go to university but because of personal circumstances didn't finish my degree, this never barred me from promotion in any company that I worked for. The idea that there is a class distinction between archaeologists and detectorists is something that I find highly offensive, it's an idea that clouds genuine working class struggle.

I maintain that if you are convinced that the archaeologist that you will not name is guilty of professional negligence and that you can prove your statement then give the forum details of their offense, such can be done without naming names. Is BAJR Hosty aware of your claims? Has this been investigated? What are are the qualifications and experiences of the landowner that you cite which make them capable of judging the actions of the archaeologist in question? GIVE US SOME FACTS.

Accusing a member of the archaeological community of professional negligence without supporting that claim with evidence is as pointless as an archaeologist accusing a member of the detectorist community, without good cause, of being a heritage thief. For me the only way forward is if archaeologists and detectorists sit down together, put aside our respective biases and work out a shared solution to a common problem irrespective of class, technology used or levels of education.

If you ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow, you need buttermilk and cheese and an equilateral chainsaw. Half Man Half Biscuit