Nice little job with CPAT

[Kel]

To pick up on Jack's point and play Devil's Advocate for a moment....

It's the people at the bottom of the food chain (new starters, fresh graduates) who are going to have to put their collective foot down and go without work as a result of taking a stand. Presumably anyone already further on in their career may already have taken the "I'll do anything to dig" route to get where they are, and are safely past the point of being impacted (having that all-important commercial experience, a reputation as a good worker and some contacts). Presumably the low wage/poor conditions didn't spontaneously arise with the recession and they must have been deemed acceptable/tolerable for some time now?

If people had acted before now, then presumably we wouldn't be in this situation? I'm doing a lot of "presuming" - perhaps I'm getting the wrong end of the stick, but feels rather like those who are unlikely to be impacted, are the ones demanding action from those who will. Perhaps the first act of a union should be to establish a "fighting fund" from members, to help those who can demonstrate that they've lost work by refusing to accept unreasonable pay and conditions?

Sorry if any of that sounds harsh - I'm not militant by nature and don't mean to imply that anyone is acting/posting out of pure self-interest. Of course it would be to the benefit of all industry workers (and the discipline as a whole) to have better pay and conditions and this is clearly worth fighting for. It's just that it seems like someone has to suffer to achieve this and the assumption is that it's people like poppy (and possibly me in due course!) who should do the suffering. And at the moment, it's not coming across as an assumption so much as a demand.

[Dinosaur]

Don't start suggesting fighting funds! There are probably (actually, are) plenty of people out there who ain't gonna join a union (or IFA for that matter) cos it costs a load of money, and more will be scared off by the prospect of even more of their hard-earned disappearing to the cause.....

[BAJR]

A pint of beer a week... yup... them union subs sure cut into your pay... and what do you get for it... pah!

[monty]

I would gladly live in a tent on site, I would do anything just for a job right now even if it meant living in a tent, id work happily for minimum wage just for the privilege of having a job.

I totally understand this point.......it's the worst I have ever known in the last 20 odd years of digging xx( ....... people will and do take what's going even if it flies in the face of what we all want and what the Charter is trying to do!.....................I might have to concede anddo something along these lines if it does not improve very soon.sad but true

[Jack]

A pint of beer a week... yup... them union subs sure cut into your pay... and what do you get for it... pah!

Although I support (kinda) joining a Union, the union subs are not a trivial amount of money! Yeah it sounds trivial when you say a pint of beer a week, but thats a meaningless statement taken out of the context of an underpaid diggers weekly, monthly or yearly accounts. As a digger there were weeks when I couldn't even afford any food, let alone a pint of beer. Which is the problem...

If joining a union guaranteed an increase in income then it would be worth the money definitely. However, I'd say its something to think about very carefully (financially speaking).

[Dinosaur]

A pint of beer a week... yup... them union subs sure cut into your pay... and what do you get for it... pah!

I can think of at least 5 people in a not particularly large office who've expressed that sentiment re. IFA subs, union membership's along similar lines cost-wise, so scale that up to the whole of the archaeological workforce nationwide and that's actually a lot of people who might not want to sacrifice that pint....

[BAJR]

that is indeed their choice.... and the diggers charter will hopefully give proof it is worth it. not being cruel but i hope these 5 peope do not complain about the state of the archaeology profession as they seem to expect nothing to change and dont want it to. would they object to any benefits.. ie would they turn down any union negotiated payrise out of principal or would they be happy to accept the work of others?

[Dinosaur]

Actually suggests that, at least currently, there's unlikely to be enough people on the premises interested enough to ever give a union enough of a foothold to be negotiating in the first place? Obviously might change if the conditions/remuneration/benevolent management attitude went downhill, or via turnover in personnel. As long as the big xmas bonuses keep turning up...(and we got ice creams yesterday - easily bribed....).....

[BAJR]

Thats quite a bizzare attitude... so you have a completely happy employed workforce... this is great... and so easily bribed with an ice cream... no IFA or any group for them. lets hope they never move. I expect you do have a turnover in personnel in that jobs do end non permanent staff have to wait for the next one. how cheap does a bribe have to be... and why bribe them? :face-stir: Christmas bonus... is that for |ALL people who work for your company ... or just those who are employed full time??

[Dinosaur]

Can happily say stocking-fillers used to turn up when non-continuously self-employed for same firm, in fact back in the days when everyone was self-employed they turned up more often....was a bit surprised to discover full-time employees getting them, thought their loyalty bonus was paid hols, being allowed to be ill, pension scheme etc. Have no idea who got them, but know that they definitely extended to some of the not-permanent staff (I was still part of that group last December, for a start)......

As you say, turnover of personnel is likely to change attitudes over time, can only report current attitudes. Don't know if there are any union members on the premises (although I'd imagine there are if only cos there are several recently-ex council staff, who tend to be heavily unionised), certainly several IFA members (although at least one is planning to bin it as waste of money...). Certainly no one who seems to be enthusiastic about either.