Have you used the ICE Conditions of Contract?

[1man1desk]

Ah, Eggbasket, welcome back and don't be chased away by Mr Unit. It is lovely to see someone joining the debate whose criticisms of the contract are based on actually having read and used it, rather than on ignorance.

Posted by Unit of 1:

quote:The ifa dont exactly go around shouting about The Wonderful Contract, in which I understand the major contribution to human kinds well-being is that it is administered by a designated person named as the CONSULTANT, rather than the Engineer. Perhaps we have discovered why you have such a fondness for it.

The role of the Consultant in this contract is identical to that of the Engineer in all other ICE contracts - this one just uses a different term because it would be absurd to call them 'the Engineer' when they are in fact an archaeologist. I believe the original intention was to use the term 'the Archaeologist', but it was felt that that would be too confusing as the Contractor is an archaeologist too.

If you are going to continue this debate, I really wish you would explain why you are so hostile to the contract, when you have admitted that you don't know what it is for, what is in it or what the roles of the parties are, and you apparently don't want to find out.

Just so you know - the point of the contract is to create a fair, level playing field in the relationship between the Employer and the
archaeological Contractor. Surely that is a good thing?

The point of the Consultant is to ensure that the person administering the contract for the Employer actually knows about archaeology and can understand what the archaeological Contractor says, and can ensure that they do the job properly. Surely that is a good thing too?

1man1desk

to let, fully furnished

[BAJR Host]

I echoe the sentiments. unit of one.... anther nonsense or ignorant peep from you and will be very unhappy. it is goog to see disussion of this document.. do not derail it .. or I will simply delete your posts. I don,t mind sensible comments from you... but don't get smart.

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[gorilla]

It's gratifying to see that everything's different but nothing's changed in the wild, whacky, wonderful world of bajr forum.

Gorilla

[Unitof1]

Vladimir is that Gorilla I barely recognise him. I hope that the Dark Age helped; currently I find Europe between 1450 and 1750 does it for me. Albuquerque

Sorry sorry sorry

I think that the answer to the negative form of get out of that without moving, said as you strangle someone, is that they live. It appears that I have fallen into its paradoxical grip myself this time

Sorry sorry sorry

I entered this thread through the poll as one who had never used The Wonderful Contract. Currently I seem to be in the 50% and if you include the Ice? Yes please and lemon it appears 73% majority who have not encountered the object. From the View results page I think that the moderators and admin can see who voted, a rather Mugabe-esk type facility, confirming my happenstance and my current archaeological competitors will maybe understand by what route I sallied into this den of yes voters. I have nowhere in my contribution said that I have read the contract and have instead applied the standard practise with the unknown and dealt it with the utmost suspicion using the few glimpses of it that I have been able to glean and basically I attempted understanding by a thousand questions. I believe that the scientific principle only ever occurs once in the pursuit of a phenomenon and can see that my questions have been utter failures and that the phenomenon of the Wonderful Contract remains intangible to me. I consider myself beaten. I can now see that after having got my vote, and I think my political ardour up, that sith was using the poll as a majority filter and did not intend for the no voters to carry on in the tread although this is not entirely clear and although I could claim that I am speaking for the silent majority that is just not so me but I will take it that sith was not looking for views on the contract from people who had not seen or not had any dealings with the contract and realise that I should not be here and regretfully what has really happened is that I have most certainly shown and admitted to my total ignorance and at the same time not forgetting my aegis almost used up my magic consultant dust and need to return to the Report mines to replenish my supplies by the getting them done penitence. My only defence is that if it had been pointed out loudly from the outset that it was a consultants charter I would have realised that I was never going to understand let alone see it and that as a self-employed archaeologist getting involved in contracts administered by a consultant was likely to result in a lot of double handling, a obvious loss of profit and a sense of why am I doing all the work.

I have been considering as an extra penance, more lovely dust although what I need is a big stick, of starting a thread for those who have not seen The Wonderful Contract along the lines of Whats your view of The Wonderful Contact? But I think that it has already been covered by the great onions negative view on strangulation. And most strangly yesterday Gorrila I found another four fluted jug handle from the very same site as the others- I have yet to get it out of the bag and wash it, more penances. Where are we Repentance Estragon.

[gorilla]

... And most strangly yesterday Gorrila I found another four fluted jug handle from the very same site as the others

...whatever floats your (rather unique) boat Unitof1!

[drpeterwardle]

I have used the ICE contract on a number of occassions and it is a very useful document for all sides. There a number of modifications that are needed and some things need to be better defined ie Ancient Monuments should be defined in the same way as in the Act. Defining bad weather is also difficult.

That said hats off to IFA and ICE etc for putting the contract togethar. As to the cost of it UKP 30 nothing compared to the cost of lawyers drawing up a contract b***** All compared to a month of excavation.

Dr Peter Wardle
(Now back to the real politics)

[the invisible man]

As one who has administered constructioj contracts for may years (JCT, not ICE) I offer the opinion that it is clear from his terminology etc. that 1man certainly knows his contractual onions and I respectfully suggest that oanyone a little vague about these matters could do a lot worse than heed his advice.

'Exceptionally adverse weather' (4.4h) is the same as in the JCT (standard building construction) contract. Many a time I had a contractor applying for an 'extension of time' on the grounds of weather when in fact condditions were adverse, but not exceptioannly so. The date for complettion was not therefore revised (i.e. no extension granted). We used to ask the contractor (and minute) at the pre-contract meeting to conform that he had priced for the works to continue through adverse weather conditions. Invariably they would give a wry smile and say yes. The point is, if the contract runs during winter you know it is going to rain sometime, maybe snow as well, and should programme accordingly. If it snowed for six weeks non-stop, that would probably be deemed exceptional.

[Unitof1]

I presume that the engineer when looking for a consultant archaeologist to administer the contract puts the position out to tender. Has anybody got any open or public references of such a process? Is there a standard form to the contract between the engineer and the consultant?

[1man1desk]

Posted by Unit of 1:

quote:I presume that the engineer when looking for a consultant archaeologist to administer the contract puts the position out to tender. Has anybody got any open or public references of such a process? Is there a standard form to the contract between the engineer and the consultant?

Good question this time Mr Unit.
Sometimes the job is put out to tender on an individual project-by-project basis, sometimes it is part of a larger multi-disciplinary contract, or a longer fixed-term contract that may cover many projects over a period of years. In any of those cases, the work will usually have been won through a competitive process.

There are a number of different contractual forms under which the Consultant can be employed, but the most common in my experience is the NEC 'Professional Services' contract (NEC = New Engineering Contract). This form of contract is used for a wide range of services, varying from engineering design to multi-disciplinary environmental studies (or both at the same time).
That said, I work in a multi-disciplinary consultancy; perhaps those in purely archaeological, or purely environmental, organisations have different experience to me.

1man1desk

to let, fully furnished

[Unitof1]

Thanks M1 years of throwing pot at finds trays has resulted in some landing in it. I put NEC into old google and of course got another stream of consciousness telling me how much it cost to buy a copy of the contracts and notes. Possibly something that I have missed is the copyright on these contracts. Do you each time you use one of these contracts have to pay the thirty or sixty quids to do so or can I get it once only or free from the library?