Self Employed Diggers Again

[Jack]

Not being rude, but if your so against being self employed, why are you a self employed person?

[BAJR Host]

Feel free to be rude

I don't see where I am against being self employed... I am against exploitation of 'self employed' and I am against people forcing people into "quasi self employed" what I am however all for is choice and informed choice.

Can you show me where I say or even infer where I am against self employment - I f I have said anything like that then it is not my intention. and would like to correct it.

I am for correct and fair self employed after all, the tax man, don't give too flying ..er. parps.. what we think... it is what they think.

I can tell you of many folk, who thought they were self employed but were not. ... (cost them plenty) or people who were self employed but on silly rates.... ie 70 quid! cash in hand is not what it seems to be.

So please... please show me where I have stated I am against self employment and I will correct that error.

?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake

[Jack]

Ah, I see. Its just you seemed so negative about the whole thing.

Whats this about exploitation of the self-employed and 'quasi-self employment'? I thought being self-employed or not was more of a choice dependant on individual contracts and descisions on whether your operating as a sole-trader or part of a P.A.Y.E. scheme?

[Oxbeast]

Hello Jack, this thread started off discussing a specific example, though naturally it does wander a bit. Page 2 probably is the best one to read if you haven't got time to read the whole thing. See also the 'knee pads on Time Team' thread. What's your day rate for being self-employed?

[BAJR Host]

Oxbeast has probably pointed you in the right direction Jack... though it would be interesting to know what you would see as a suitable minimum dayrate for a digger (70? 90? 100? )

I could not find myself being negative about self employment, rather the (and I will say it again) exploitation (whether intentional or not) of workers.

Real example no 2...

Entire team of archaeologists working for a council ... you are all self employed says the council.. and pays them 65 quid a day.. (of course if they had been employed, they would also have had additional rights.. but hey ho) Then tax man does spot check on council.... Who are these people... says mr Tax man.. er... they are self employed says council ... then lets just doa little check shall we...
Hmmm says tax man... these people are employed... so they are now emergency taxed. But we are self employed says diggers... it does not matter what you think says the tax man, it is what you are that matters? And by the way, lets have a look at your self employed status.... oh dear...
yes... some people were caught for tax evasion, and one (a friend of mine ended up with a 15 k bill...)

So... next time you take cash in hand, no questions asked... think about it... is it worth it? If you are self employed... have you had any say in what you will do? How you will do it, how much you cost.. have you ensured they have adequate insurance? have you agreed invoice terms? etc.... Or are they trying to turn a blind eye...

You can be very successful self employed.. you can work as and when.. you can do what you want... conversely... you take the risks.. the hit...

I love it .. I also have no safety net... whoooo hooo... danger! but fun.

So... you see - I aint got nothing down about self employed... as long as you are.

?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake

[Jack]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

And thats the email I have seen myself from others

- I Highlight in red the bits that glaring say EMPLOYED with comment in green .. in which case said company is not only knowingly employing people on a false "self employed basis" BUT they are able to bid for jobs substantially lower than others who employ people.... undercutting?

We have a project in #### for which we require staff . Are you available 21 July?. The project is scheduled to run for 5 weeks.

The work would be on a self-employed basis at ?60 per day it is up to the self employed person to decide their rate and there would be a probationary period of 2 weeks and how does this work as the person is self employed... ?. Accommodation will be provided Need I say more.. the self employed person will provide this and then invoice the client afterwards,AND it most certainly WILL be taxableand [b]some travel expenses will be reimbursed[/b]some travel expenses? Again this is for the self employed person to put into their initial tender for the job... the one that states how much, and what all the costs will be.

Hmm, back again after delving deep into the past of this thread. I am afraid I disagree with this comment, as does, according to the information on their website, the inland revenue.

None of your highlighted phrases state the individual would be employed per se, it doesn't work like that. It is dependant on looking at the situation as a whole. Furthermore if a contractor provides accomodation to a self-employed worker it is an allowerable expense as it is away from that workers usual place of work, i.e. their home/office. If on the other hand, the worker was on a short-term employment contract, the provided accomodation would be a taxable benefit, as the place of work would be the site.

You are correct however, that it is up to a self-employed worker to set their own rates, as it is up to the employer to set the rates they will accept, i.e. ?60per day.
Also it is perfectly acceptable for a self-employed sole-trader to work on a daily rate rather than a fixed sum. And what is this nonesense about a self-employed worker can't be told what to do, when they can work on site or how to do the work? I always tell the plumber or the builder what I want them to do and when they can do it!

[BAJR Host]

Seems like you have a problem...

I am very very aware about how it works. (I actually talked to the Tax Officer) - you can however use the website and go through the checklist.

It is interesting you use the plumber example.. as you are not actually employing the Plumber... you are paying for a specific job to be done. All that matters is the job is done to a satisfactory level.. therefore Plumber A.. might be busy and go off, sending Plumber B to complete the job... as long as the requirement of the work that have been agreed are met... all is well and you pay the agreed sum...

if the work is not done you can ask for it to be redone until the agreed work has been carried out...

if you employed him, the set rate would be meaningless.. as you would keep paying until the job was complete.

You are quite right that both day rates and fixed rates are acceptable.. (I use both as well) my rates are my rates... if you as a client don't like them, then thats up to you... sometimes I get the.. "I only have this much" what can you do for that....

We return to the figure of 60 quid... so.. for a self employed person accepting 60 quid.. lets see where it takes us? in fact you do not have to go far to realise that even the loss of holiday pay is enough to take you below the minimum levels that both the IfA and BAJR see as the bottom line.

I would recommend looking at this

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/esmmanual/ESM0500.htm

here is a sample

quote:Fixed-price tendering is linked to financial risk. However, where it is claimed that payment is by way of an agreed price/pricework you need to establish that the basis of payment is a genuine fixed price agreement for the completion of the works and is not an agreed ?price? which has been set or imposed by the engager in relation to measured work or that the ?price? is no more than an agreed and set hourly rate.

I would like to make it clear one more time...

I am all for self employment.. HOWEVER
if you are told you are self employed... put on a contract that you sign, cos it has pages of big words, written by a smartish legal person... if you accept 60 quid a day or even 70... even 80... then you are shafting yourself.

Question Jack... would you... as a self employed individual accept 60 quid a day? Yes or No





?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake

[Jack]

You seem to be dancing around the issues here, especially the one about accomodation. The plumber example was to illustrate the issue about being told what to do and when to do it.

Also your guide on self employment seems to be misleading when compared to that on the Inland revenue website.

and i quote...

'Having undertaken the quick Inland Revenue check above, it is a rare field archaeologist who can credibly claim to be self-employed.

A field archaeologist who is told what to do on-site by a supervisor; or a supervisor who is instructed by a site director cannot under the simple Inland Revenue be self-employed.

If they are paid and registered as self-employed they are probably in breach of Inland Revenue regulations.'

This is not the case.

The inland Revenue says....


'Recent court cases indicate there is no single satisfactory test governing the question whether a person is an employee or self-employed. One must consider all the factors that are present in, or absent from, a particular case; weigh those pointing to employment against those pointing to self-employment; and then stand back and consider the picture that emerges. The result may be that a person is considered to be in business on his own account (self-employed) or is an employee.'

They then go on to list a whole range of factors to be taken into consideration.

As to your question about daily rates, although it is irrelevant to the argument, my answer at this present moment is no.

I have, however in the past worked on that rate for some companies, I have worked for less for others and more for some. Now that I have the experience I can charge more.

[BAJR Host]

I am not sure who exactly is dancing around here?

:face-huh:

Can you be self employed as a digger...? yes.

Can you think you are self employed? yes

Can you find yourself in trouble unless you are careful? yes

Can some companies 'employ' you are self employed at a rate that is low for a self employed person? sadly yes.

Should people be aware? yes...

The guide is not meant to be comprehensive (and so has links to where you can get full details - as you say a whole range of factors have to be taken into consideration.


When you are on a hypothetical site.. the accommodation that is "provided" for you (will of course have to go through your books.. ) You are insured? Of course you must be... after all, you are hardly expecting every contact you get to be covered by the client? You have all the equipment you need to carry out a piece of work.. should you be called on? Do you have any say in how the site is dug? how it is written up? what samples are taken, where the drawing film comes from? do you provide anything? OR... do you just turn up in your car (which of course is insured for business use and all travel is indicated on you tax returns) with a trowel your own helmet? Hi-viz steelies.. etc...

It is quite possible to be self employed.. I am almost in despair trying to make that clear to you... However... 2 BIG factors come to the front...

A) Are you really self employed on every job you do?
B) Are you being underpaid?

Accommodation:

Lets look at an example given by the Inland Revenue

quote:The engagement is fairly long term and there is an extensive right of control over the person. He must carry out the services personally. The client provides equipment and accommodation and there is no significant financial risk to the company.

The only pointers to self-employment are the minimal financial risk (from invoicing), and the ability to work for others (again, a minor point) also the existence of other work for other clients.

Standing back from the detail therefore the engagement is one which would have been an employment had it been direct between the individual and the client. The common intention for self-employment does not alter that. Whilst it would have proved decisive in a 'borderline' situation a review of other factors points strongly to employment here. The new rules would apply to the engagement.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ir35/taxbulart.rtf

Borderline is the key word .. sometimes you may be... sometimes you may not... just thinking you are does not mean you are..

The whole thrust of this thread... 60 quid is too little for a self employed person to accept.. it is BELOW the minima set by BAJR and IfA.. FACT.. plain - simple... if you want to work for that.. fair enough.. if you have worked for that.. fair enough... BUT... it is below the minima and will not get advertised on BAJR.

As to self employed... think about how you would reword it... but be very very sure, that you were making people aware that self employed = responsibility.

:face-thinks:


?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake

[drpeterwardle]

Have to say most of the posts miss the point about being self employed.

1. It is usually obvious if you are self employed and if in doubt ask the revenue. The person always has to pay their income tax in any event.

2. Cash in hand work is clearly wrong if the intent is tax avoidance or companies are using it as a mechanism to avoid their responcibilities.

3. There can be no such thing as a BAJR or IFA approved rate or minima. This is price fixing and is illegal.

4. A contract for say time team at ?70 a day may suit somebody. The point is your time is worth nothing unless somebody is prepared to pay for it. What is important is how much you earn overall and if you are happy with that amount. Would I work for Time Team for ?70 a day for, expenses plus accommodation plus food. May be I would once or twice.

5. Direct comparisions between employed wages and self employed are difficult to make.

6. The most important thing is that people become self employed are informed about the situation and its advantages and disadvantages.