Thornborough "debate"

[idontdodinos]

I agree that the area around the henges should be scheduled but, and I know this has been said time and time again, unless the farmer stops ploughing then the archaeology is going to be destroyed. There is no question about it. The features, of which there are not many!, have been so heavily truncated by the plough already. I say excavate and preserve by the written record.

How many people have been to visit the henges? I have been to see the middle henge and my overall impression was great. However, there are a few points to keep in mind, icluding the lovely view of a large, stinky landfill, the fact that it is being quarried from the inside out by pesky bunnies, or badgers or whatever they were and large chunks of earth were just falling away. Oh, and you can't forget the rusty iron farm implements rotting away on the side of the earthwork! Hardly what a tourist would want to pay money to see.

What about the farmer? If the land was scheduled and couldn't be ploughed anymore, how is the farmer meant to make a living?

quote:I still think that the archaeology on Ladybridge should be scheduled, if Dr Harding is correct then this settlement is the largest so far discovered in Britain (300+ Neolithic occupation pits), surely good reason for Scheduling? I know this will not stop ploughing, but it would mean more controls than at present.

Where does Dr. Harding get his figures from? How do you get
"300+" from the small number of features that were actually recorded. I wish archaeology was that predictable!

I'm sorry I went on a bit of a tangent there.

dinos

[Grubby]

Surely someone must have asked this question of them. If the decision is reversed at appeal then if the site has no designation then we are all back at square one. At least this way, as you say the archaeology gets some sort of protection. With due respect I think they should put their money where their mouth is and do the right thing.

quote:Originally posted by Venutius

I've not asked recently and to be honest I'm loathed to apply pressure to an organisation that is clearly demonstrating a strength of will over this issue that I am in agreement with.

Those that know me will probably be shocked that I say this, but I think I have to have an element of trust with EH over this particular issue.

Save the Thornborough Henge Complex - http://www.timewatch.org

As for the ploughing without a solution to the current landuse those pits are condemned to destruction and without any record. If that happens then you have got to ask yourself what has all this been about.

[mercenary]

quote:As for the ploughing without a solution to the current landuse those pits are condemned to destruction and without any record. If that happens then you have got to ask yourself what has all this been about.

Indeed. And we can't ignore the perhaps unpalatable truth that the quarrying has allowed the area to be much better studied than any other northern henges. Presumably research stops now. (I don't really want to get into a debate about destructive vs. non-destructive techniques -I've done enough geophysics and fieldwalking on prehistoric sites to know that you don't know what you've got till you excavate.)

I wonder if Dr. Harding will be coming back in later years with research proposals that use destructive techniques. If he does, a large part of this debate will have been a simple academic vs. professional turf war.

[Venutius]

No it is not a turf war, it is about all the archaeology that has been destroyed so far, it is about the setting too, which is clearly far more important to some than others. It is about whether quarrys can quarry anything they like so long as they have friendly farmers with ploughs.

It is about features being "roughly dug" due to lack of funds or time, it is about Mesolithic pit alignments being regarded as important enough to let NYCC and EH know about it prior to destroying them. It is about a development timescale that sees the features destroyed before the results of professional research has been delivered.

The bottom line is, if you feel that a monument being ploughed means we should overlook the rules and allow the entire area to be quarried, then you have to ask yourself how many features would be left in this country and if setting that precedent is good for archaeology, or for development.

Are we not supposed to be pushing the boundaries in a positive direction? Or do we just give up? The ploughing argument seems to me to be the "lets give up" argument.

Ultimately, we should not and cannot be held to ransom because the system has flaws. We must work to fix the system, not give up on it altogether.

Save the Thornborough Henge Complex - http://www.timewatch.org

[mercenary]

quote:Are we not supposed to be pushing the boundaries in a positive direction? Or do we just give up? The ploughing argument seems to me to be the "lets give up" argument.

Well, that seems to be the EH attitude to its landmark "Ripping up History" work, which now seems to have been abandoned.

For me, a choice between record before it is destroyed by quarrying or don't record before it is destroyed by ploughing is an easy choice. We should record.

I will only be comfortable with not recording if it is not going to be destroyed at all. Let's not let EH get away with the usual preservation In-situ con that archaeologists and developers seem to love so much because it doesn't cost money.

The campaign has bought some time for a portion of what remains of the landscape, but it will go eventually.

[Tile man]

To be fair EH is very much at the mercy of national government funding even without the latest cut it is somewhat debatable whether it had dnough financial clout to properly fulfill its remit.

Personally I would like to divert some of the resources being in-exorably sucked into all things sporty....

[Venutius]

Personally I believe in taking responsibility for driving change, rather than worrying about what EH may or may not be up to. EH are enabled by public support.

You argument says to me that you would support any development so long as the developer records and can show that the site is being ploughed. I don't take that point of view since its an open door to development on SAMS and other important sites, it would certainly see the end of most of Thornborough Moor and the vast majority of barrows and henges in lowland Yorkshire. It would also be a good argument against entering into more appropriate land management deals.

Save the Thornborough Henge Complex - http://www.timewatch.org

[mercenary]

quote:. I don't take that point of view since its an open door to development on SAMS and other important sites, it would certainly see the end of most of Thornborough Moor and the vast majority of barrows and henges in lowland Yorkshire. It would also be a good argument against entering into more appropriate land management deals.

I think that door was opened long ago, and I don't like it either. Professional archaeological recording is often all we have.

Have a look at this article from 10 years ago and see if any progress has been made in a decade of this sad state of affairs.http://www.monbiot.com/archives/1996/01/...-the-past/

[historic building]

You would hope that the ploughing issues would be covered in the conservation plan. Obviously to preserve anything a total change in the land management regime is necessary in the area around the henges.

My concern with the conservation plan is that the area covered by this plan has shrunk considerably since this time last year when the tender documents arrives where i was working at that time.

[idontdodinos]

quote:It is about features being "roughly dug" due to lack of funds or time, it is about Mesolithic pit alignments being regarded as important enough to let NYCC and EH know about it prior to destroying them.

I am really sick and tired of me and my co-workers being accused of shody excavation work! Venutius I don't recall you visiting the excavations at Ladybridge. Don't pass judgement on something you know nothing about. EH and NYCC saw the archaeology that was there prior to excavation and allowed us to go ahead and excavate the features. Get your facts straight before you start making accusations!