20th January 2008, 10:44 PM
Tom says
"my Grandad was in the Battle of Cable Street. I'd be happy to say he was manning the barricades but he was a police sergeant, fighting 'the communists' i.e. all of the anti-facists, who he saw as a trouble making rabble. Ten years later, everyone had a different perspective of course. (No-one fought Moseley's facists on that day, they stood on the bridge awhile and then went home)."
Further information on this:
A Law had been introduced by the Labour Government which was argued would stop the Black Shirts marching. It was never used against the facists but several times against the anti-fascists. Labour Leaders argued at the time that to physically stop the fascists was to play into their hands and the right tactic was just to ignore them. This has been argued again and again and again down the ages, for example in the 1970's when the NF were taking third place in council election.
This argument is often linked to the 'everyone has freedom of speech' argument. However, I and many others would argue that allowing freedom of speech to those will close down all freedom of speech is ridiculas.
But people who argue for freedom of speech for all don't really mean it. For who would they really argue that someone should be allowed to stand on a platform and argue for child abuse or the systematic rape of women?
Hitler came to power because his organisation was only confronted too late with the Social Democrats saying 'don't demonstrate' and the Communists saying 'all non communists are as bad as each other.'
Hitler in 'My struggle', said 'if they had confronted us at the begining we would have been finished'.
Often, anti-fascists end up fighting the police, since the police always protect the fascists and many police belong to fascists groups (they used to wear their NF badges on their uniforms in the 70's and 1980s.
What happened on the day was the Jewish Board of Deputies and the Communist Party leadership didn't want an anti-fascist protest but young Jews and young communists (many of whome were also Jewish) united together and drew in hundreds of workers both Jew and non-Jew. Despite their battering by the police the group of young men and women stoped the blackshirts marching. This was signicant since before that they could go anywhere.
They were never the same after. The Battle of Cabble Street demonstrated that a 'united front' of people who might not support each other on many subjects could none the less band to gether when the enemy threatenend everyone.
It was more than a few people standing on the bridge however. It was a victory like Lewisham later in the 20th century tha demonstrated fascist could be stoped.
It occurred during a period when trade unions were mobilising to send supplies to the Republican government in Spain and young men from all over Europe were dying fighting Franco's forces.
Hundreds of thousands of left-wing people in Europe realised what fascism was a long time before 1939.
.. and history repeats itself over and over again, fascists march, Labour says ignore them and the police protect them and fight the anti-fascists..
Trendy liberal lefties say, the commies are as bad as the fascists use such extreme language, of course now the post-modernist elements can see everyones point of view even Hitler.
I'm affraid I'd rather take action to try and physically stop the fascists and in doing so inevidently end up fighting fascist protecting cops who always seem to relish "only doing their jobs" protecting the wrong people.
Mind you BADJR seems to think that people were "battered by the police quite a few times... mainly for being gobby... you might remember that in the 80s".
Where were you during the 80's??? Just quickly I remeber a handicapped man killed by a CS Gas canister in Liverpool, countless black people killed by the police in cells or the back of vans, I rember blood all over the floor of Warrington Hospital with young women with smashed shoulders and knees and one in a comma for a week and I remembert how in the miners strike the police always took the big miners out.
And lets not forget Northern Ireland.
With comments like that I really wonder what you were actually involved in?
Tom, what do you mean by "Considering where you're starting from you'll get nowhere if you appear to be laying the sins of the past at the feet of white Australians today" ??
Do you mean that a migrant citizen should'nt attack racism in the country they now call home? You can't mean that because that would lead you to argue that migrants to Britain were second class citizens.
"You'll get nowhere", I suspect by this you think I can win over Pauline Hanson supporters by logical polite arguments. Racists can be won away from the attitudes by telling them the truth and arguing hard with them as the anti-Nazis members did when they stood outside certain football grounds and managed to recruit NF members into the Anti-Nazis league. But the arguments were backed with the clear knowledge that if the arguments failed we would be physically confronting the NF and their friends and stoping them marching or attending a fascist meeting.
I well remember the hundreds of Anti-nazis skin heads on the Right To Work Marches etc.
I also remember how a NF shop steward in a Liverpool Bakers strike in the early 1980's changed his mind on immigrants when his speech translated into an Indian language (Urdu I think) resulted in the only other Bakery to come out on strike.
Incidently, BADJ HOST, I don't think class war existed in the early 80's or if they did not 'Up North', I only came across class war much later, when I saw them damaging rich peoples cars in London (fun I suspose for those who did it but fairly pointless) but I do remember how throughout the early 1980's various left wing people SWP, IMG, Millitant and no group etc would in every work place argue against racism, Ireland, womens liberation and Gay liberation.
Even then their existed a few individuals who argued that strong argument would "put People off".
Tom, you say "you'll get nowhere if you appear to be laying the sins of the past at the feet of white Australians today."
So where do I do that? I think you must have got that from a newspaper article and not by anything I wrote, if it 'appears' to you thats what I meant then it just shows how wrong you can be.
It would be silly, be like blaming you for the actions of your Grand Dad when I only 'blame you' for you innadequate research (the whole story is securely told in many history books with supporting eyewitness accounts from both side.
It is fairly boring to be accussed of steriotype attitudes that I don't possess.
Lets make it clear, I don't blame anyone for their ancestors actions but do blame governments and racist individuals for failing to do anything about the inequalities that exist in the-here-and-now.
And I think whether in Australia or the UK its quite valid for anyone whether born in the country or outside to point out how important history, even recent history is to both an understanding of the present and in order to prevent the same mistakes occurring again and again...
Arthus
"my Grandad was in the Battle of Cable Street. I'd be happy to say he was manning the barricades but he was a police sergeant, fighting 'the communists' i.e. all of the anti-facists, who he saw as a trouble making rabble. Ten years later, everyone had a different perspective of course. (No-one fought Moseley's facists on that day, they stood on the bridge awhile and then went home)."
Further information on this:
A Law had been introduced by the Labour Government which was argued would stop the Black Shirts marching. It was never used against the facists but several times against the anti-fascists. Labour Leaders argued at the time that to physically stop the fascists was to play into their hands and the right tactic was just to ignore them. This has been argued again and again and again down the ages, for example in the 1970's when the NF were taking third place in council election.
This argument is often linked to the 'everyone has freedom of speech' argument. However, I and many others would argue that allowing freedom of speech to those will close down all freedom of speech is ridiculas.
But people who argue for freedom of speech for all don't really mean it. For who would they really argue that someone should be allowed to stand on a platform and argue for child abuse or the systematic rape of women?
Hitler came to power because his organisation was only confronted too late with the Social Democrats saying 'don't demonstrate' and the Communists saying 'all non communists are as bad as each other.'
Hitler in 'My struggle', said 'if they had confronted us at the begining we would have been finished'.
Often, anti-fascists end up fighting the police, since the police always protect the fascists and many police belong to fascists groups (they used to wear their NF badges on their uniforms in the 70's and 1980s.
What happened on the day was the Jewish Board of Deputies and the Communist Party leadership didn't want an anti-fascist protest but young Jews and young communists (many of whome were also Jewish) united together and drew in hundreds of workers both Jew and non-Jew. Despite their battering by the police the group of young men and women stoped the blackshirts marching. This was signicant since before that they could go anywhere.
They were never the same after. The Battle of Cabble Street demonstrated that a 'united front' of people who might not support each other on many subjects could none the less band to gether when the enemy threatenend everyone.
It was more than a few people standing on the bridge however. It was a victory like Lewisham later in the 20th century tha demonstrated fascist could be stoped.
It occurred during a period when trade unions were mobilising to send supplies to the Republican government in Spain and young men from all over Europe were dying fighting Franco's forces.
Hundreds of thousands of left-wing people in Europe realised what fascism was a long time before 1939.
.. and history repeats itself over and over again, fascists march, Labour says ignore them and the police protect them and fight the anti-fascists..
Trendy liberal lefties say, the commies are as bad as the fascists use such extreme language, of course now the post-modernist elements can see everyones point of view even Hitler.
I'm affraid I'd rather take action to try and physically stop the fascists and in doing so inevidently end up fighting fascist protecting cops who always seem to relish "only doing their jobs" protecting the wrong people.
Mind you BADJR seems to think that people were "battered by the police quite a few times... mainly for being gobby... you might remember that in the 80s".
Where were you during the 80's??? Just quickly I remeber a handicapped man killed by a CS Gas canister in Liverpool, countless black people killed by the police in cells or the back of vans, I rember blood all over the floor of Warrington Hospital with young women with smashed shoulders and knees and one in a comma for a week and I remembert how in the miners strike the police always took the big miners out.
And lets not forget Northern Ireland.
With comments like that I really wonder what you were actually involved in?
Tom, what do you mean by "Considering where you're starting from you'll get nowhere if you appear to be laying the sins of the past at the feet of white Australians today" ??
Do you mean that a migrant citizen should'nt attack racism in the country they now call home? You can't mean that because that would lead you to argue that migrants to Britain were second class citizens.
"You'll get nowhere", I suspect by this you think I can win over Pauline Hanson supporters by logical polite arguments. Racists can be won away from the attitudes by telling them the truth and arguing hard with them as the anti-Nazis members did when they stood outside certain football grounds and managed to recruit NF members into the Anti-Nazis league. But the arguments were backed with the clear knowledge that if the arguments failed we would be physically confronting the NF and their friends and stoping them marching or attending a fascist meeting.
I well remember the hundreds of Anti-nazis skin heads on the Right To Work Marches etc.
I also remember how a NF shop steward in a Liverpool Bakers strike in the early 1980's changed his mind on immigrants when his speech translated into an Indian language (Urdu I think) resulted in the only other Bakery to come out on strike.
Incidently, BADJ HOST, I don't think class war existed in the early 80's or if they did not 'Up North', I only came across class war much later, when I saw them damaging rich peoples cars in London (fun I suspose for those who did it but fairly pointless) but I do remember how throughout the early 1980's various left wing people SWP, IMG, Millitant and no group etc would in every work place argue against racism, Ireland, womens liberation and Gay liberation.
Even then their existed a few individuals who argued that strong argument would "put People off".
Tom, you say "you'll get nowhere if you appear to be laying the sins of the past at the feet of white Australians today."
So where do I do that? I think you must have got that from a newspaper article and not by anything I wrote, if it 'appears' to you thats what I meant then it just shows how wrong you can be.
It would be silly, be like blaming you for the actions of your Grand Dad when I only 'blame you' for you innadequate research (the whole story is securely told in many history books with supporting eyewitness accounts from both side.
It is fairly boring to be accussed of steriotype attitudes that I don't possess.
Lets make it clear, I don't blame anyone for their ancestors actions but do blame governments and racist individuals for failing to do anything about the inequalities that exist in the-here-and-now.
And I think whether in Australia or the UK its quite valid for anyone whether born in the country or outside to point out how important history, even recent history is to both an understanding of the present and in order to prevent the same mistakes occurring again and again...
Arthus