10th December 2010, 02:23 AM
(This post was last modified: 10th December 2010, 02:32 AM by GnomeKing.)
various outrages of police or protester behaviour will undoubted emerge more clearly, or be alleged, over the next few days...
i am concerned the BBC 10 news led with the inconsequential attack on suspiciously poorly routed royal....and them immediately began to write history by stating that protest will ONLY be remembered for violence.....obviously the gutter press all focus on this also (eg Daily Mail WTF!!!!)
i am concerned by the range of ill informed and bigoted views flying around discussion networks today....a key theme was that violence is unjustified, and thus the protest is unjustified, and therefore the police and government have acted correctly.
eg; http://www.channel4.com/news/liveblog-tuition-fees-vote
alternatively, apparent comments from individuals at the scene suggest that there were numerous incidents of police provocation and intimidation, leading to aggressive stand-off, heavy handed policing, and immediate angry reaction from large crowds......
Perhaps i could find room for debate with someone who believed violence was merely a Tool - however, it can never be a Sufficient tool, and i personally would question its Necessity in any circumstance...however this i know;
-political reform over recent human history has frequently at some point involved angry citizen mobs (of many affiliations) venting their anger on individuals and property. Britain, America, Athens............
-violence is a symptom of this condition of cultural change,
-historical knowledge of our species suggests that violence in rioting is somewhat predictable, even if undesirable, and is somewhat independent of the particular ideas at stake.
Therefore;
...To condemn this protest for its Vandalism and Violent aspects, is to Also condemn Thomas Paine etc. etc etc etc etc - the Instigators of 'Social' and 'Democratic' norms that we now take For-Granted, and which are now cited as the proper avenues of conduct for citizens to convey Deep and Important Anger!
Clearly, such a position would be Un-Democratic by any measure...i do not therefore condemn the violence and vandalism per se - i condemn the Public Servants and State Agents who inflamed a flammable situation - with predicable consequences - they did not step aside to the overwhelming Will of Citizens.
Two different views;
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=23334
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damian...rotestors/
We are citizens. The police are public servants. It serves the public good for levels of order to be maintained. However state officials should all be subordinate to the Good of the People.
Lines of uniformed police in confrontation mood are guaranteed to upset potential volatile crowds of motivated and angry people (especially young people)
Using mounted officers as a mobile rolling barrage on crowds of Citizens is an extreme measure, and deeply intimidating.
It is so emblematic of 'peasant' vs 'solider-on-horse' conflict, it might even be an evolutionary wired perception - certainly it is, culturally speaking.
Kettleing is not 'passive' either - in fact it is extremely intimidating, and it is Guaranteed to create lingering animosity
- i think it is probably safe to contend that any human faced with confinement or violence against a companion will react in fairly predicable ways.........
There is no hope under the current government for better policing.
this might involve a much more stand-off approach, allowing protesters to regulate themselves (and not causing a commotion by intimidating easily inflammable crowds). Accept that if the crowd is large and angry, there will likely be some property damage. Accept roles as Servants of the people, not thier Custodians... Allow representatives of the demonstraters to report incidents that they feel need intervention. ... ironically surveillance technology might genuinely help here, despite my genuine fears and hatred of State Surveliance (http://www.fitwatch.org.uk/) - but only on condition that the Special Branch Heavies go and fuck Right OFF... more peaceful protest and effective policing CAN be achieved with FEWER in-your-face coppers.
The trick, is not to Control,
the rioters, but to
Not Cause the riot.
This is OUR country - OUR streets - OUR government offices and monuments(object biography anyone?) - we WANT them -we WANT them to work FOR us
- we DONT WANT shit in our own Herb Garden (not unless we have too...)
damage occurs when situations are inflamed,
damage also occurs when anger is very great and specific - ie the Manifest Emotion of the populace, and Will of the People.
"give us our money back!" they chanted as they harassed and broke windows of the Treasury.
I heartily agree.
i am concerned the BBC 10 news led with the inconsequential attack on suspiciously poorly routed royal....and them immediately began to write history by stating that protest will ONLY be remembered for violence.....obviously the gutter press all focus on this also (eg Daily Mail WTF!!!!)
i am concerned by the range of ill informed and bigoted views flying around discussion networks today....a key theme was that violence is unjustified, and thus the protest is unjustified, and therefore the police and government have acted correctly.
eg; http://www.channel4.com/news/liveblog-tuition-fees-vote
alternatively, apparent comments from individuals at the scene suggest that there were numerous incidents of police provocation and intimidation, leading to aggressive stand-off, heavy handed policing, and immediate angry reaction from large crowds......
Perhaps i could find room for debate with someone who believed violence was merely a Tool - however, it can never be a Sufficient tool, and i personally would question its Necessity in any circumstance...however this i know;
-political reform over recent human history has frequently at some point involved angry citizen mobs (of many affiliations) venting their anger on individuals and property. Britain, America, Athens............
-violence is a symptom of this condition of cultural change,
-historical knowledge of our species suggests that violence in rioting is somewhat predictable, even if undesirable, and is somewhat independent of the particular ideas at stake.
Therefore;
...To condemn this protest for its Vandalism and Violent aspects, is to Also condemn Thomas Paine etc. etc etc etc etc - the Instigators of 'Social' and 'Democratic' norms that we now take For-Granted, and which are now cited as the proper avenues of conduct for citizens to convey Deep and Important Anger!
Clearly, such a position would be Un-Democratic by any measure...i do not therefore condemn the violence and vandalism per se - i condemn the Public Servants and State Agents who inflamed a flammable situation - with predicable consequences - they did not step aside to the overwhelming Will of Citizens.
Two different views;
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=23334
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damian...rotestors/
We are citizens. The police are public servants. It serves the public good for levels of order to be maintained. However state officials should all be subordinate to the Good of the People.
Lines of uniformed police in confrontation mood are guaranteed to upset potential volatile crowds of motivated and angry people (especially young people)
Using mounted officers as a mobile rolling barrage on crowds of Citizens is an extreme measure, and deeply intimidating.
It is so emblematic of 'peasant' vs 'solider-on-horse' conflict, it might even be an evolutionary wired perception - certainly it is, culturally speaking.
Kettleing is not 'passive' either - in fact it is extremely intimidating, and it is Guaranteed to create lingering animosity
- i think it is probably safe to contend that any human faced with confinement or violence against a companion will react in fairly predicable ways.........
There is no hope under the current government for better policing.
this might involve a much more stand-off approach, allowing protesters to regulate themselves (and not causing a commotion by intimidating easily inflammable crowds). Accept that if the crowd is large and angry, there will likely be some property damage. Accept roles as Servants of the people, not thier Custodians... Allow representatives of the demonstraters to report incidents that they feel need intervention. ... ironically surveillance technology might genuinely help here, despite my genuine fears and hatred of State Surveliance (http://www.fitwatch.org.uk/) - but only on condition that the Special Branch Heavies go and fuck Right OFF... more peaceful protest and effective policing CAN be achieved with FEWER in-your-face coppers.
The trick, is not to Control,
the rioters, but to
Not Cause the riot.
This is OUR country - OUR streets - OUR government offices and monuments(object biography anyone?) - we WANT them -we WANT them to work FOR us
- we DONT WANT shit in our own Herb Garden (not unless we have too...)
damage occurs when situations are inflamed,
damage also occurs when anger is very great and specific - ie the Manifest Emotion of the populace, and Will of the People.
"give us our money back!" they chanted as they harassed and broke windows of the Treasury.
I heartily agree.