Voting restrictions for IfA Council members

[BAJR Host]

How goes the EGM ?

[BAJR Host]

pps... Kevin... have you read the IfA Facebook discussion you started. :0

Phil Mills is enjoying he fray.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8531366027

He is happy for quotes... though I suggest people read the whole to place everything in proper context

I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for 'why doesn't this organisation I'm not a member of not represent me' argument - besides which there are a number of channels by which non members can make their voices heard - I don't think that they can be reasonably expected to have an equal voice to people who have paid up, gone through peer review and ... Read Morebound themselves to the code of conduct.

There are clear and transparent rules about joining the IfA and how decisions are made. If someone thinks the IfA is affecting them with its descisions and they choose not to be within it to put forward their point of view ( or join with others to argue the case) well thats their choice

I don?t know about your ?fact? that Ros threatened the Ifa ?perhaps you ghave different information from me ? can you tell us how and when? Preferably with some independently corroborated data?

We are not bandying words about who are worse employers ? you made an (unsupported) statement implying that the RO pay minima would force non ROs to reduce their pay streams if they are forced to enter the scheme. I called you on it ? my experience with a number of ROs and non Ros as employees and latterly clients tends to suggest Ros are better. The limited data from the Finds group survey of finds practice also suggests that Ros have better procedures in place, although the feed back from non Ros was too small to be statistically significant, and when we run the survey again I hope that we will getter a better response so we would have a better evidence base . You have not offered evidence to contradict this analysis. What kind of pressure are non ROs answerable to?

How many people have lost their jobs and been black listed through complaining? I keep see these allegations banded about, butt here are such things as industrial tribunals and outlets like the digger where allegations of such happenings could be made. I have heard nothing to support the idea of an industry wide black list?.
My understanding of the IfA is based on 6 years of council, 9 years on the validation committee (including some 3 years as vice chair!) some 6 years on the IFA Finds group committee (the last 3 years as chair) 6 years as a member of the committee for working practices in Archaeology , as well as experience on committees of a number of different organisations out side of the Ifa ? which is always useful in understanding on how to argue your case in a democratic forum, and the compromises necessary to get an agenda addressed, as well as how even small changes can have big impacts ,an appreciation on how long things can take, and how external events can rapidly change everything.

Please do take the time to read the rest of the exchange between us.

At the end of the day, I am contending that something went on ... and this affects us all. Also... and with due respect... being a CBM specialist is with a job very different from being a digger in the field in the 21st century. Being on a committee is great, but not exactly at the coalface.

I like the comment about teh Digger, whcih has only returned recently after a serious absence AND is a bit quiet... it turns out ehy are without internet... HOWEVER... DIGGER.. if ever we needed a voice... it is now.!

[oldgirl]

"At the end of the day, I am contending that something went on ... and this affects us all. Also... and with due respect... being a CBM specialist is with a job very different from being a digger in the field in the 21st century. Being on a committee is great, but not exactly at the coalface."

(BAJR note: select the text in the post and then press quote - just above the post on the right)

Oh dear. Are we back to the 'only a digger can be a proper archaeologist?' Or 'only the experience that 'diggers' have of the industry counts'? Sorry, but I think that statement undermines your other arguements by at a stroke devaluing the experience and work of people who aren't seen as 'proper diggers'. (Incidentally a discussion I had with the diggers forum. When it was set up, I was out on site digging or writing up reports in the office for 90% of the time - the rest was things like tendering, client meetings and organising machinery and welfare. But becasue I was a 'field director' in a small organisation, I wasn't considered a digger. Really? In whose book?.... That's my first rant for the day.... sorry)

Back to the subject - Phil is talking about his experience WITHIN IfA and how he sees it working. Many people who talk about what IfA is and isn't and what it should and shouldn't be doing have not had this experience and are clearly not aware of teh (sometimes hard) lessons that those of us that have been involved have to learn.

The original suggestion is that people who were within ROs should not be allowed to vote in Council on matters that affected ROs. The updated one was that such matters should be discussed and voted on the EGMs/AGMs. My personal problem with these meetings is that, unless I can attend in person, I cannot listen to the debate before deciding which way to vote.

In the end, this is a question of the sort of democracy that operates. Is IfA a representative democracy (in which case we elect people to Council and trust them to decide after careful consideration) or are we a Repubilc (in which case we have referendii on every matter). At the moment, the former operates.

[BAJR Host]

Fair point Clare... my comment about Diggers/Field Archaeologists was in relation to these archaeological staff being the worst affected (or would have been) - Given that even with salary levels of 15k. this only relates to working 52 weeks a year. And again, it is the field arch that bears this in general. (freelancers as well.. as a freelance illustrator I was often in that position too)

This was not about being a proper archaeologist, it was about appreciating the reality of no house, cheap car (if any), cheap food, no savings, no hope of savings etc... It is too easy to forget it. I consider you an archaeologist, as I do Phil... what I don't consider is we now know what it is like to survive on air, and try and keep the mouth shut as you need that job, or don't mention the H&S breach, because any job is better than none...etc We can look back and remember, but that is very different from living it. (and I count myself in there too)

I do believe the IfA is starting to show itself more... and thats what was needed.

The vote... well, thats for the IfA members, and with the shock horror announcement that only 109 people voted in the Council elections, it just goes to show what we all knew... in general... we just don't get involved.

You may choose the Republic... but remember... (deep breathing) this is the federation!
http://www.moviesoundscentral.com/sounds...3/rise.mp3

[oldgirl]

as opposed to the position that some directors of small companies are involved with - that if the organisation they run goes down, their house and all their assets go too because the company overdraft is guaranteed on them personally (Limited company or not, most banks won't accept risk against a company with few phyiscal assets - which described most small units perfectly.)

Personally I don't have a problem with representational democracy. And you'll notice that I haven't criticised the running of the federation. I'm not in it and so that would not be appropriate. (Am I allowed to be in it? I can't remember now!) :face-crying:

[oldgirl]

Actually - back to the (sort of) main topic.....

I think you're point is that people at the 'sharp end' are more able to appreciate the problems that decisions made within IfA might have on them. So surely that completely refutes the original theme of this thread. Surely this demonstrates that the people it affects (ROs and their staff) should have a greater say, not no say, in the decisions that affect them.....

[BAJR Host]

Well, all things will be changing in 2010.. to take onboard some comments/criticisms of how it is just now. There will be a 'return' to the traditional format Forum... with enhancements previously unavailable on the old one. AND a more robust and useful front section based on Content Management and content editors.

The Federation should always be seen as a place for discussion and interaction for all - so... Rescue, IfA, CBA, FAMEetc all have their specific and overlapping roles. The Federation is not a replacement of any of them - but rather an infomatic system.

And yes you could be involved. :face-kiss:

[oldgirl]

Yeah, you say that NOW!

[BAJR Host]

damn... found out!

[GnomeKing]

off topic @david- personally, i dont see any problem with the forum set up as stands....but i appreciate your selfless attention (as always)