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23rd April 2010, 08:54 AM
Kevin - think you've slightly missed the thrust of what I've been getting at (although lots of interesting stuff in what you wrote above, most of which I fully agree with)
There isn't a problem now, there's been an exchange of diggers across the EU (and wider) for decades, no problem with that, a lot of my colleagues are from beyond the UK shores, and equally I know plenty of British diggers who work abroad (often for considerably lower money but with the benefits of sun and adventure).
My concern is 'British' diggers unionising/forcing big pay deals/better hours/better conditions/career dvelopment etc etc, all laudable aims which I fully endorse (personal reservations about the unionisation, but that's for another day/thread), to the point where it's far too easy (and indeed increasingly worthwhile) for clients to just get someone cheaper! If you can get any new arrangements to apply to everyone within the EU (and wider) and generate a level playing field then all's well, if not then then there's the potential for major probems 10 years down the line?
Austin Ainsworth
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23rd April 2010, 10:08 AM
Hi all,
As interesting as many of the posts are, they are far removed from the OP and title of the thread. If posters wish to discuss pay scales and the European jobs market please create a new thread, (before anybody says it, I should have stayed :face-topic: as well).
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23rd April 2010, 10:15 AM
Well I don't think I have missed the thrust.... The 'thrust' was a throwaway comment that I think was probably regretable in that it more closely resembled a Mail headline than a reasoned arguement....
My point is that if archaeologists co-operate instead of competing and build strong unions that embrace all workers then many of your concerns will cease to be a problem. If archaeology faces a challenge to reasonable terms and conditions then that is a challenge that workers in co-operation should face together, but it is laughable to suggest it is even a problem whilst wages in archaeology lag so far behind other graduate professions. Even if an 'improvement regime' was launched immediately it is unlikey that in 10 years time we would have reached parity with other comparable professions. That is the other 'tabloid' fear contained in the 'thrust' of your contention. It plays upon a wholly imaginary set fears generated by unprovable future events (not unlike the Express headline 'Property values to crash as a result of volcanic activity' which might as well add 'Pompeii could become a wasteland for 2000 years').
I think it is fine to contrbute your views to BAJR forums. I think it is fine to hold a view that is contrary to mine, but I think for the sake of clarity you should consider more carefully whether the throwaway comments really put across your honest view.
With peace and consolation hath dismist, And calm of mind all passion spent...
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23rd April 2010, 10:42 AM
Start of a new thread, branched off from the Cotswold thread.
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23rd April 2010, 12:17 PM
Had me confused for a moment there!:0
I agree we seem to have strayed slightly away from the 'overtime pay for extra hours' discussion, nice to be actually having a discussion though :face-approve:
The issue of 'on-shore' undercutting has already been raised here, which is enough of a problem for units trying to do decent work, and not helping diggers incomes either. Are people going to be changing their tunes when 'off-shore' undercutting occurs? (if it hasn't already, anyone know of any cases, either way across the channel? I know some British units do work in Europe, but don't know on what basis)
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23rd April 2010, 01:26 PM
Personal experience...I have never done a job outside of the UK for less money than I would have got for staying at home.....other than where I have chosen to be a volunteer. Can't speak for UK commercial units that work abroad, but have heard rumours of at least one former colleague who bought a holiday home in France as a result of a certain job connected with a certain dam....
With peace and consolation hath dismist, And calm of mind all passion spent...
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23rd April 2010, 02:44 PM
Future Fears would certainly include the seemingly downward spiral of charge-out rates presumably in a desparate attempt to win work that will ultimately just lead to more job losses. That has nothing to do with workers from overseas, however, more to do with a lack of thought for anyone else. I was recently inadvertantly told by an agent that they had been quoted ?450 for a rapid DBA and ?210 per day on site for a watching brief. Now, that seems insanely cheap (although I don't know how old these figures were, but I don't think that old and there may be more behind them). Knowing the organisation involved and the distance it would be to the site I can only assume the person doing the work would be covering the extra travelling time unpaid, which seems to be a regular occurance anyway. I struggle to see how anyone can survive unless they have some sort of subsidy on some of the rates that are currently being banded about.
It basically means that if you want to trry and pay your staff as well as you can and don't want them to have do unpaid overtime you're screwed!
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23rd April 2010, 04:04 PM
Future fears? Dunno about anyone esle but mine's a big, fat... I fear that I'm gonna be unemployed in one week / one month / one years* time (* use as appropriate). So, as for whoever's going up against me in the archaeological job lottery... I don't care who you are, what you have or what you can do... the job's mine, ok?
Selfish? Yes, but then again... that's what I've (we've) become. I think the days of everyone mucking in together as a happy band-of-brothers (and sisters) has rather died out somewhat (if it ever existed at all).
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23rd April 2010, 06:43 PM
If you view destroyingangels' profile and look under friends it has the message
"destroyingangel has not made any friends yet"
I wonder why.........
[url=http://www.bajrfed.co.uk/../member.php?1267-destroyingangel][/url]
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23rd April 2010, 07:00 PM
destroyingangel Wrote:Future fears? Dunno about anyone esle but mine's a big, fat... I fear that I'm gonna be unemployed in one week / one month / one years* time (* use as appropriate). So, as for whoever's going up against me in the archaeological job lottery... I don't care who you are, what you have or what you can do... the job's mine, ok?
Selfish? Yes, but then again... that's what I've (we've) become. I think the days of everyone mucking in together as a happy band-of-brothers (and sisters) has rather died out somewhat (if it ever existed at all).
A slight detoour from the subject of this thread (kicking the Dinosaur?), I've heard of a number of instances recently where people (including from one of our jobs) have been lured away from existing work by promises of 'minimum 6 month contract' and the like, then been laid-off a lot sooner, in one case after a week and a half! Is BAJR taking this practice into account when vetting who he allows to post job adverts?
