Q: how many archaeologists does it take to ruin an industry?

[pdurdin]

Regardless of what all the old-timers think, I'm going to pursue archaeology as a career, and if they're not going to be helpful or encouraging then it's hard to see why I should pay any attention to them.

Therefore you only hear what you want to hear. Why should you pay attention to anyone's experiences if that is the case?

Sorry, I can see how that came across wrong.

People can share their experience -- even bad experiences -- and still manage to be helpful, encouraging, or even just informative. But that is not, for the most part, what I've seen on this forum.

Very much a case of sorting the wheat from the chaff, as BAJR said.

[Unitof1]

Q: how many archaeologists does it take to ruin an industry?
A: all of us
Q: how many archaeologists does it take to save an industry?
A: more than currently are

Over on http://www.bajrfed.co.uk/showthread.php?4066-Open-Letter-on-Cuts-and-working-together

?They? have come up with a Mortimer and as always they are trying to do the same thing that the ifa and the cba have most screwed up and which has most screwed those associations which is conflagrating the industry archaeology and the individual ?archaeologist?. I want an industry with individual archaeologists in it. I want you and me to be called archaeologists and I want to make a living from being an archaeologist.


As it stands there is no industry called archaeology and there are no individuals called mortimers sorry archaeologists or to answer the question: it is impossible for archaeologists to ruin the industry as neither exist.

But in my quest to pin down the essence of archaeologist currently I am working on-

A mortimer is someone who has their own public indemnity insurance for their trowel and tools.

Basically if you put your tools say down and someone else trips up on them you are liable (even though you have paid your national insurance). Now there are a lot of people out there who work on someone else?s insurance or a company insurance and this is where it gets very difficult to ascertain if the individual is a mortimer sorry archaeologist.

As it stands I am not sure if professional indemnity is required or indeed if it is possible that a trowel should have professional indemnity. There is also the limits to this public indemnity insurance for tools. Just yesterday the client supplied a 17 ton tracked machine for an evaluation in their clients field. Now the brief said that it was to be used under archaeological control which I very presumptuously presumed that was me, such is another essence of currently being a professional archaeologist, the presuming that one is and that one has to be one to take archaeological control.

I hope this encourages others to become a mortimer

[moreno]

These are all valuable points... and ones that hear as well. So no offence taken, just a lesson for me (and others to take)

Constructive criticism is good. Even better is the individual who can take it on board :face-approve:

It can be a struggle to pull out the wheat and leave the chaff (no offence chaffers! - I fall into that as well.)

It took several millenia for our ancestors to work this out.... I think one is allowed to stumble now and again.

Do you think a section which is locked from addition of posts that takes a thread that is 'intersting' and creates a synthesis would be useful?

Accessing info in general can be time consuming. If it helps speed up finding relevant info, fab. I would think you do quite enough providing the service that you do.

Like you I am enjoying the volunteer and public archaeology that I do now... and doom and gloom can be so dis-heartening. But then... BAJR Fed is what it is. And useful criticism like this can help it evolve.

And here my recruitment agency get annoyed if I'm not waiting by the phone, in this weather? HA!

[P Prentice]

. I'm not sure that industry bodies should be encouraging more people into entry level positions when there are lots of experienced people out of work. It is only a few years ago that people were walking into digging jobs without any experience, ............All the best though.

and there's the rub

[P Prentice]

As it stands there is no industry called archaeology and there are no individuals called mortimers sorry archaeologists or to answer the question: it is impossible for archaeologists to ruin the industry as neither exist

yet archaeologists existed long before unit and will no doubt exist long after - not neccesarily waged though

Legacy is growing on me though Moreno - just needs a strapline and to be less than 300 words cus i was bored before i got to the end

[moreno]

I'm not sure that industry bodies should be encouraging more people into entry level positions when there are lots of experienced people out of work. It is only a few years ago that people were walking into digging jobs without any experience, it is just a bit unfortunate if you happen to graduate in the middle of a deep recession. All the best though.

and there's the rub

This is my sentiment as well. Various threads have commented upon training, CPD, developing necessary skills etc. I don't want to belabour the points raised. Aquiring the basic skill set to work as an entry level archaelogist should be managed, this doesn't mean people should be excluded. How this management is developed and implimented is open to debate. All things considered, and drawing upon my experience in the states, most individuals had a degree in anthropology/archaeology to work as "crew", if you wanted to progress above supervisor, unofficially, you needed a MA, to work as a principle investigator, a Phd was usually necessary. There were always exceptions to the unofficial rules mind you, based on one's experience. Call it whatever you want, label it however you might, but to speak with one voice, agreement is needed on putting into place a structure to manage a commercial career in archaeology. I'm not a fan of micro managing so I don't see the point of the NVQ, nor do I feel that the IFA should be the structuring and implimenting body. What I do value though is the attempt to address the issue.

[P Prentice]

training and experience are essentially the same thing - many acquire it on amateur digs and many are better prepared for the professional world than university fledgelings
i have dug with brilliant undergraduates and talented amateurs - but i have also dug with shoddy professionals with a PhD and plenty of journeymen diggers with major chips
training and experience should be available to all for the betterment of the disciplne, society and the industry
my advice to the novice is sign a pledge and join something - make a legacy

[BAJR]

All I can say is start to look positive. Lets look to where we will go. It is worth being positive for once

[Sith]

Basically if you put your tools say down and someone else trips up on them you are liable (even though you have paid your national insurance). Now there are a lot of people out there who work on someone else’s insurance or a company insurance and this is where it gets very difficult to ascertain if the individual is a mortimer sorry archaeologist.

As it stands I am not sure if professional indemnity is required or indeed if it is possible that a trowel should have professional indemnity. There is also the limits to this public indemnity insurance for tools. Just yesterday the client supplied a 17 ton tracked machine for an evaluation in their clients field. Now the brief said that it was to be used under archaeological control which I very presumptuously presumed that was me, such is another essence of currently being a professional archaeologist, the presuming that one is and that one has to be one to take archaeological control.

Argh! Insurance again:

Professional Indemnity: Covers you if (heaven forbid) you make a mistake in the professional services you have provided leading to a dispute with a client.

Public Liability: Covers you against claims arising from members of the public (including trespassers and sub-contractors) standing on a badly positioned hoe and ending up with a face like Wile E Coyote.

Employer's Liability: Covers you against claims from your own employees when they fall off the barrow run of death while laughing at the bloke with the hoe in his face.

'National Insurance' whether you've paid it or not doesn't come into it.

[Unitof1]

[SIZE=3]Argh! Insurance again:

Professional Indemnity: Covers you if (heaven forbid) you make a mistake in the professional services you have provided leading to a dispute with a client.

[/SIZE]
I don?t bother with this as I cant for the life of me see where it might apply. I would love to know of any examples where it has been used by an archaeologist, particularly a field archaeologist and having said that I don?t know what you would want to pay for it?

[SIZE=3]Public Liability: Covers you against claims arising from members of the public (including trespassers and sub-contractors) standing on a badly positioned hoe and ending up with a face like Wile E Coyote.

[/SIZE]When I first went on my own the curators made it a clause in the brief that I had public indemnity insurance. As stated elsewhere I discovered that it seemed to be offered at a discount specifically for field archaeologists for members of the ifa and the cba. Having been a member of the ifa once and never again I elected to join the cba because they were cheaper. I carried this sycophantic membership for a year or two until I discovered that I did not need to have ever been a member to have undertaken the insurance. I still smart from the misunderstanding. I have take that smarting further to wonder why I would need it anyway and at what cost. I do not own the land on which I work and to my mind it they that should be concerned about insurance. It is my understanding that public liability can be used for damaging a clients property. This is a bit of a mute point as I probably was invited by the owner to undertake some activity that would result in damage so don?t see why I should be liable.

Again I would love to know of any specific cases

[SIZE=3]Employer's Liability: Covers you against claims from your own employees when they fall off the barrow run of death while laughing at the bloke with the hoe in his face.

[/SIZE]
I don?t employ any body

[SIZE=3]'National Insurance' whether you've paid it or not doesn't come into it.

[/SIZE]
Yes that right it doesn?t do what it says on the tin