Time Team and Ainsbrook Hoard

[garybrun]

Some very good points for debate gumbo.
Ill just touch on one of them.

quote:I would like to see a detectorist community using and contributing data to the Historical Environment Record as much as the PAS database.

There is a problem with this area as many do not want the data and would be overwhelmed with work. The PAS does have certain HER's who have signed up for data transfer. When it comes to data transfer direct to the HER the PAS would view this as bypassing their system. UKDFD http://www.ukdfd.co.uk has over 10300 records on the books at the moment and have offered data transfer to PAS. But as PAS don't recognise the UKDFD and there is now way we can transfer the data. PAS view the UKDFD and those who record with UKDFD as irresponsible. We could go direct to the HER and bypass the PAS system but does the HER want the data and have they got the time and the resources they need to establish systems in place to work with??? I have tried... find me one that will and I will organise it.
This is why I get so angry regarding the "professional jealousy" and also being accused of being irresponsible. The data is there... they don't want it.




Website for responsible Metal Detecting
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording Our Heritage For Future Generations.

[BAJR Host]

So one good solid issue that we have is data collection…
One could say that PAS (and UKDFD) as well as various other means exist to collect data… but what is needed?
Having thousands of coin find spots on my SMR is not what I want… I know Sarah Poppy is looking at creating a link from PAS to Exegesis .. and thanks to Water Newton she has some ‘live data’ to deal with. I would prefer Event data… with the field / area taken as a place where ‘many things were found… click for more details’
Knowing what the data is and where it is seems to be the most important…
Access to Information…
So first one…. Whats the best/realistic ideas for data sharing – what would you (as archaeologists) expect. …. Remember to remin in the real world and not expect every detectorist to buy a copy of Exegesis and ArcMap!


"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[gumbo]

Yeh I think there are a number of issues: Does everyone want to contribute to national (?official) records (and I believe we really must at least try for this). What do we choose to record and how(i think linking the PAS database and other datasets to Exegesis is a way forward and doesnt have to be difficult). I agree with Mr.Hosty that we dont want individual coins each with a HER number, What we want is fields with polygons drawn around them listing all the portable finds (with a hotlink to PAS and other databases?) from them listed. With some confidentiality clauses, much of this is already done in an exemplary way in NOrfolk see: http://www.heritage.norfolk.gov.uk/

Once data is elevated to this level, we can then broach methods and funding for enabling amateur metaldetecting based field research that enhances the understanding of Sites and Monuments (the context of the objects) as well as the artefacts themselves.

[Shorty]

I feel a bit scared to jump into the fray here, but Tom, you asked what you thought the programme did for public perception of detectorists? I can tell you that my boyfriend (who has no experience of the archaeological/detectorist community) wasn't impressed by the younger detectorist at first. He thought the guy came across as a shyster, fixated on material reward for the site, "full of p*** and wind", was his phrase. Given that after two years the guy was so willing to work with archaeologists, I'd put that down to careful editing. My boyfriend thought the reason they wanted to work with arkies is because archaeology validated their activities (detectorists, don't shoot me - his words, not mine!)

He also made the point that it seemed as though the archaeologists had their hands tied, whereas the detectorists were in a much better position to criticise where trenches were/were not placed, as they did not have the same professional limitations or concerns, and were clearly not knowledgeable about the ins and outs of archaeological practice (understandably). Maybe better communication between both was necessary here.:face-thinks:

Also, Tom, can I ask why public perception of either side is important? These two detectorists, prior to declaring their find, said they had absolutely no experience of working with archaeologists and plainly stated they were suspicious and uneasy about it. Do you think it was public perception that led them to think this way? If so, then Time Team has shown that arkies are not just good-natured, fluffy-sweatered, cider-swilling hippies (as the programme usually depicts), but are viewed by some in a much more sinister light, i.e. the patronising, tweed jacket toff type. Unfortunately, public perception can be pretty rigid, and it would be nice if both sides could accept that their is variety and diversity in each communities, good and bad guys, responsible and irresponsible etc.

[garybrun]

quote:Originally posted by gumbo


I haven't thought about the answers in detail too much. But to start thinking about my point 1. I think the 'trust' issue that we have been talking about needs to be worked on, and secondly perhaps there could be incentives for responsible detectorists. Perhaps grants for handheld GPS' could be made available to prolific finders (I'm aware that this also enters a whole new problem in that the PAS is feeling a financial pich at the moment and evrything comes down to if there is money available).

1. I think the trust issue is the one of the main keys to the problem on both sides. And it will take a lot of hard work and "recording evangelism". PAS has worked very hard in this area with the FLO's and also prominent detectorists have taken their message on board.

quote:Originally posted by Peter Wardle

OK here is why I will not use "volunteers" even if they are free.

1. H&S issues but mainly in terms of training, accountability and control.
2. PPE
3. Quality control - it is easy to maintain quality control with somebody who is hired.
4. Confidentiality
5. Data consistency
6. Hours of work
7. Understanding of ecological requirements
8. Supervision
9. Administration.
10. Control.
11. Management and supervision time.

Peter can you please be more specific,in the term H&S Training???

1.I assume you mean a site safety induction, which takes 15 - 20 minutes?
2.PPE that would be supplied by the project contractor,in short basic requirements
:,pair of steel toe capped boots,hi-vis waistcoat ,hardhat & gloves
3.NO TRUST
4.SITE ACCESS WILL BE LIMITED / NO TRUST
5.ALL DATA CAN BE LOGGED / NO TRUST
6. AS AND WHEN TIME IS FREE/ VOLUNTEER
7.PART OF METHOD STATEMENT & RISK ASSESMENT
8. NO TRUST
9.???????????????
10. NO TRUST
11. NO TRUST

The Internet to be honest works both ways but helps spread "negative propaganda" and scare mongering on both sides. H0w to counter act that I think it very difficult.
What would be good would be a FAQ to counter act the myths that exists. The BAJR conference is also a great way to break these down and I see the BAJR TV service that will be launched in the near future as a very good tool to foster relationships.
I would really like to film a "role swap" were an archaeologist goes out with a detectorist for the day and see his skills and visa versa.
Its getting both sides to appreciate one another.
I know to some to work around in a field swinging a circle and listening to a beep beep is not the most thrilling of days
You must also realise the fear that exists in the mind set of a detectorist is that the greatest fear is legislation and banning.
Archaeology will never be banned!

While various leeks and other info on find spots (because some of the governmental organisations want to have their own independence and set their own standards and resent others trying to take central control) have caused fields and other land to be removed from the detectorist. Various stories of wrongful seizure and arrest don't help the situation and again fly around the Internet like a plague with those entrenched in the different camps look for the mistakes of the odd few.

How many detectorists are posting on this thread?
How many members of this forum view me as a radical and against archaeologists because I swing a circle on a stick and fight for the recognition of a hobby that contributes so much to the historical record. Granted their are always bad apples in every bucket but I am not trying to score points at the expense of another as some seem to suggest.

2. Grants for GPS systems.
I dont personally think this is need as many detectorist have this equipment. You could maybe encourage detector dealers to add a GPS to their sales package. I also think an information pack to educate those who are buying a new metal detector on the benefits of recording and what it can do for the heritage record. Maybe grants for publication in this area would be a good thing and to start educating the newcomers to the hobby.
I had arranged a deal with a major manufacturer to put in PAS leaflets in the detector boxes that were sold in the UK but it was never really followed through by the BM and I backed out once I was branded as a trouble causer and irresponsible. Sometimes you can run out of olive branches.
While I agree a lot this stuff is also very political but Im not a polotician and could never be one as I dont know when to keep my mouth shut. But we are all different.


Website for responsible Metal Detecting
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording Our Heritage For Future Generations.

[BAJR Host]

the GPS package and basic recording package... --- good idea... Garmin sponsorship?

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[garybrun]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

the GPS package and basic recording package... --- good idea... Garmin sponsorship?

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

I do know that large detecting manufacturer was giving awy for a period Garmin GPSwith their detectorsin the USA.



Website for responsible Metal Detecting
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording Our Heritage For Future Generations.

[Sith]

quote:Originally posted by Shorty

i.e. the patronising, tweed jacket toff type.

I'm not picking on you Shorty (it is interesting to hear the views of a non-combatant on this issue), but that comment on the perception of archaeologists as sinister tickled me. I'm no stranger to tweed myself but I'm definitely not a toff or sinister, I just like to look smart. In true consultant style, I'm resplendant in pinstripes today.

However, I can't help but think that many of the opinions of archaeologists, not just here but in all kinds of media, seem to be based on their portrayal in 1930s novels or episodes of Dr Who and Quatermass. I've worked on sites in the past where I was the only one who hadn't 'benefitted' from a public school education but you would never have guessed (I certainly didn't until the subject came up in the pub).


D. Vader
Senior Consultant

Vader Maull & Palpatine
Archaeological Consultants

Don't make me destroy you, Curator

[drpeterwardle]

Gary said,

"I would really like to film a "role swap" were an archaeologist goes out with a detectorist for the day and see his skills and visa versa."

You are on. You would simply not believe what I have to do or what skill sets I have and equally I would like to learn how to use a modern metal detector so as I said you are on. When are you next available?

As the for the lack of Trust is not lack of Trust of MD users but a healthy management cynicism. See the thread on volunteers.

Cheers Peter

[Shorty]

Mr Sith, I apologise for the use of the work 'sinister' - it was a bit excessive. And you are absolutely right to maintain sartorial standards in your profession: a bit of dirt is no excuse for not looking dapper.

I think what I was (rather dramatically) trying to say was that Time Team had managed to show a different side to their normal portrayal of archaeologists, as it viewed them and their activities through the eyes of the detectorists. As far as the detectorists were concerned, the arkies seemed unwilling to listen to their ideas, appeared to be stonewalling, unapproachable and dismissive of their experience. Although I'm aware that Time Team bears only a fleeting resemeblance to regular archaeologists, compared to the normal programmes, this would surely alter public perceptions a little?

On a more optimistic note, I think all archaeologists can now take hope from the fact that this 'public perception' issue is now about to change for the better with tonight's Steven Seagal movie as an archaeologist embarks on a revenge killing spree. Archaeology: cool, dynamic, sexy...