Council contractors list and the IFA

[peteraf]

Private life also can be constructed in a way that covers my rights to join or not join a club or organisation and in law you can read Union as a trade organisation so both cover it. The situation is somewhat different for a profession where it compulsory to be a member of the relevant professional body before you can practice. On PPGs Only a statute fully processed by parliament, with very few exceptions, is enforceable at law. The way you use an SI is that you bring an action under the relevant act and use the SI or what ever to attempt to demonstrate how the requirements of the Act have not been met.
Edit to add Wednesbury is found most often in Judicial review

[leic]

John Collis's piece on archaeological qualifications across Europe is very revealing - Britain and Ireland stand out in their lack of legal definition. As he notes at least two distinguished profs in UK wouldn't qualify as excavators elsewhere in Europe. US system is similar to Continent in specifying similar qualifications with split between prehistoric and historic. A friend of mine who is a world authority on pot with only a BA had to have a colleague as nominal supervisor in his commercial firm.
http://www.discovering-archaeologists.eu...Report.pdf

[peteraf]

leic as a foot note to that in most if not all of the countries where he gives an MA as the requirement that would normaly be the first degree takes 5 years Most UK MAs dont get a look in as they are only one year class work and one to write up.

[kevin wooldridge]

quote:Originally posted by peteraf
.... in law you can read Union as a trade organisation so both cover it.

No sorry Peter you are wrong. Your analogy is wrong.

A trade union under English law has a specific definition, a specific registration process and specific law applies. There are also laws regarding to the activities of trade organisations, but they are specifically different laws to those which apply to trade unions.

And at the end of the day the IfA is neither a trade union nor a trade organisation. So no laws applying specifically to the functions of either form of organisation apply to the IfA.

I have been a member of a trade union for 35 years and a member of the IfA for 23 years. They are not in any way, form or function similar bodies.



With peace and consolation hath dismist, And calm of mind all passion spent...

[peteraf]

Its the same area of law that you would use if an employer said no trade union members need apply.
What I am saying is that you can not unless you are talking about jobs that require a person with a specialist qualification state that a person must be a member of a particular organisation. And then only if membership of that organisation is part of the qualifying process. As is the case for Barristers , Solicitors etc.

[1man1desk]

Posted by Talisien:

quote:Confusion arises, I believe, in how you regard PPG16. All the PPG documents are guidelines... They are not, however, protocols or enacted, either under new legislation, primary acts, enabling acts or as statutory instruments amending earlier legislation/schedules etc ... and thus not strictly speaking legally 'enforcable'...

Not entirely true.

For a start, PPGs (or PPSs, which are replacing PPGs) are not guidelines, they are guidance - which might look like a small difference, but it is significant. They are issued by Government under powers granted by the Town and Country Planning Act, and provide guidance to Local Authorities - which they are required to comply with - on how to prepare development plans and how to consider relevant issues in the planning process.

They are legally enforceable in that any component of the development plan that conflicts with a PPG is unlikely to get through the statutory process leading to formal Adoption, and in that any planning decision that conflicts with a PPG is open to appeal and the appeal is likely to be successful.

quote:Returning to the original point, whether the persons actually undertaking the assessment should be members of the IfA, this is not a requirement that can be enforced by the local plannning authority. All the developer needs to do is to ensure they employ a professionally qualified archaeological organisation or consultant (PPG16 - Para 20)

You are right this time. The Local Authority would be within its rights to accept MIFA or RAO status as evidence that an individual or organisation was professionally qualified - but would not be within its rights to refuse any alternative evidence of professional qualification.

Posted by Peteraf:

quote:leic as a foot note to that in most if not all of the countries where he gives an MA as the requirement that would normaly be the first degree takes 5 years Most UK MAs dont get a look in as they are only one year class work and one to write up.

I can't see anything to stop local authorities requiring a certain level of academic qualifications (even though that would exclude some UK archaeologists). However, in comparing a UK MA with overseas ones, bear in mind that English MAs are generally post-graduate qualifications that follow a 3-year first degree, so they represent the culmination of 4-5 years study, whereas the overseas ones are simply longer first degrees. They should therefore represent at least equal qualifications.

Not all UK MAs are the same though - Oxbridge ones are first degrees plus attendance at some dinners, while Scottish ones are the result of a 4-year undergraduate course.


1man1desk

to let, fully furnished

[the invisible man]

You do Oxbridge MAs something of an injustice, 1man. There is a small fee to pay as well (15 quid last I heard).

[peteraf]

1man1desk
In Law I cant think off hand where a person could object to an employer asking for a particular level of education. On the subject of masters degrees part of the problem of transference within Europe is as you say they do come in a wide range and that they are only 4 years full time and 1 year to write European ones are 5 years full time. . Oxbridge BA plus time or whatever MA as post grad and at least on masters that counts as a Phd. And its not just Oxbridge and again Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have local variations. Further on PPGs as you say they are guidance but don't forget that you can comply with them in the negative in that you gave due regard and then do nothing just think material considerations in planning.

[leic]

Local government organisations have to operate equal opportunities policies. The have to advertise so as to not exclude people from applying who can reasonably be expected to do the job. Which is why they ask for an archaeology degree or equivalent. In practice they appoint who they want but usually have to follow a strict points system.
Being a member of the IFA is different - it is a professional organisation not a trade union. However, it is still a restrictive practice under employment law to insist on membership. Its perfectly OK to say membership is preferred in an ad but not to insist on an employee being a member once appointed. Chartering will make no difference to this. It is only a few professions where you have to have specific qualifications eg medicine. in fields like biology and geology chartered status is merely an alternative career route. i am sure a judge would look at the make-up of the profession and argue an archaeology degree was not essential to practice the profession as there are so many people without it. In the case we are talking about the curator is operating a restricted practice by insisting on IFA membership and restricting the right of non-IFA members to carry out their profession. The council would get hammered in a court over this.
This could be changed by the government bringing in specific legislation to define an archaeologist as on the Continent but unlikely given the current drift of policy to equal opportunities and opening up professions or by licensing. The trouble with the PPG16 'professionally qualified" is EH didn't even try and define it and a judge would look at current practice. Its no good citing the professions proper like law as they operate in a different world. Legislation might not go the way you wish- they might insist on a PhD to run any major project

[peteraf]

It is not OK to say IFA preferred I can think of more than one judge who would take exception to that.