The Pay Rise

[drpeterwardle]

There are 29 days to the implementation of the IFA pay rise.

How many companies have told their staff that the pay rise is coming in next month?

Have any companies told their staff they are not going to implement them?

David I think we should monitor this.

Peter

Where am I?
What motorway are we on?
Is this M4 already?

[BAJR Host]

Will do....

soon will be coming out the final reminder... and the new advert costs as well



"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[voice of reason]

erm, what pay rise? Local government pay award not yet set, agreed or imposed, therefore IFA can't implement and therefore your pious hopes of monitoring will have to be put on hold. It seems unlikely that LG pay will be 'agreed' till June/July, and then applied retrospectively in councils. What do IFA do in April then?

[kevin wooldridge]

And if the IFA stick to the Chancellors suggested limit of less than 2% on public sector pay, where goes the Campaign for a real improvement in archaeological pay?

(See my mail ad nauseum elsewhere about this)

[BAJR Host]

Quite right about the delay in LGA pay negotiations... something which was highlighted by BAJR in January..

I have talked to the IFA about it... and they are still to make a definate statement

I have also had several off the record discussions with Units, where they are in real trouble with no firm figure from the IFA... as budgets for the new tax year and budgets for new tenders that will be in the new tax year are impossible to create if there is no guidance.

I say to them all... Why not just go with the BAJR suggested 5% (and DF supported and IFA for that matter... who support any initiative that asks for higher than minima)

SO peeps.... if you want to show that you mean business... if you want to know what to pay... BAJR asks once more... budget for aa 5% rise... you have the figures, you have had them for 2 months now and there is no reason that you can't go for them.... LGA Units are going to be hard hit... as they will be tied to the LGA pay structure... and back dating pay is not an option in some of these ....

BAJR will be flexible with employers... (remember they aren't the enemy- we have to work together) but will give a BAJR star to those that can/will pay above the minima... so you know who is doing what.

The pension/sickness/holiday one is trickier... espesh the pensions... but sickness and holiday is easy... and will be required for advertising...

Think of the poor employer who is trying to tender for work (for you to work on) when they can't fix the rate ??? Make it easy folks... 5%!!!!

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[voice of reason]

I think someone needs a shot of business realism in this - for RAOs the IFA requirement from April for net pension contribution of 6% above minimum pay rate and sickness of 1 month and 20 days holiday plus Bank Holidays means that for those who aren't already compliant there is already a basic net increase of at least around 10% in the cost of employing someone at Site Assistant level this year (and that is on an optimistic view that people won't clock up 20 days sick each per year).

You are then asking for a further 5% on top of this? This means an increase of 15% in base cost. You try hiking your rates by this amount and see the reaction from your clients.

The effect of this on tender prices for RAOs v non-RAOs is clear. RAOs, who are trying to take the 'virtuous' path, lose business to those who don't need to comply. Result for staff?

The threat of not being allowed to advertise on BAJR - not exactly the biggest deterrent in the world to the non-virtuous is it?

[BAJR Host]

You are then asking for a further 5% on top of this?

Nope... the IFA intend to increase base pay by xx% PLUS pension PLUS sickness PLUS holiday

BAJR is asking that the xx% (ie the unknown) is made into 5% a nice simple one...

So nope I am not asking for an additional 5% I am asking that the xx% is 5%

As to the RAO non-RAO tender pattern...

well a) perhaps not advertising on BAJR does have an affect... (it has in the past... )
and once again it comes down to self-responsibility

If a Digger or Supervisor or Illustrator or whoever will go and work for a company that pays less than the IFA / BAJR rates.. then I may as well give up trying to help raise pay and conditions..all that happens is more companies will have to pay less... and then we have a DOWNward pay spiral... at a time when pay should be going UP.. because of a need for staff..

Then it will be the staff themselves that take it down...

VoR.. please read this ..
http://www.bajr.org/documents/payconditi...7_2008.pdf

It has been out and been in the hands of every Contractor since January .. to allow time to talk about it...
(ps... I personally have trouble with the pension element - but feel I have to support the IFA / Diggers Forum)

As to the increase... of 10% .. so that means you were not paying for hoidays or sickness before? the 5% rise on basic pay equates to an extra £1 a day per Digger - not exactly break the bank money?


"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[drpeterwardle]

David said

"it has been out and been in the hands of every Contractor since January .. to allow time to talk about it..."

I am unclear if it has been in the hands of every contractor. I didnt recieve a copy (I did see a draft). It should be in the hands of every employer not just contractors. Are curators going to be exempt.

I have to say I am against the IFA pay rise and the BAJR 5% as I have said before.

Peter

[voice of reason]

You misunderstand my point - the 5% 'on top' is the potential additional cost to the company (actually likely to be an additional 3% as LG pay award will end up around 2%). I was trying to say that the net effect of all these things together in the same year would be to raise the costs of the companies considerably, and is likely to adversely affect their competitiveness.

And the 'choose the good company over the bad' doesn't work when only the bad company has work because they have the tenders and you need to eat and pay the rent? And there is so much misinformation and uninformed c**p bandied about in tea huts and on here in recent months that the identification of the good guys is made difficult.

Can we also take the personal element out of this - just for information yes, of course we pay holiday - it is a statutory requirement. Sick pay is a new one , especially outsie local government units (who of course have their ultimate finacial safety net behind them).

The situation IFA have created with the pension issue, as well as allowing employers to 'buy out' items like holiday, hours and sick pay has completely muddied the water and will create more than a little confusion in site staff's minds as they attempt to balance those companies who will be buying it out aganst those who provide the benefits. Is it better to take cash in the pay-packet today, or cosnsider the prospect of sick pay tomorrow and pension in 40 years time? I know what short-term view most will be choosing.

Not sure about the maths either - 5% of say £270 pw = £13.50 - that is more than £1 per day. Working week of 5 days a week is £2.70

And finally - just when and how did you become responsible for negotiating the terms and conditions of archaeological staff across the country?

[BAJR Host]

apologies VoR. you seem to be under the impression that I am somehow trying to be combative or dictatorial…. I assure you I am not and apologise if it comes over as that.

You ask about the 5%

as you know the LGA negotiations will come up with around 3 - 3.5% though Unison is actually asking for 5%. Currently the IFA, PROSPECT and BAJR are jointly involved (as well as talks with SCAUM) to complete the Benchmarking on job descriptions and related pay levels… it is clear already that large gaps between the expected pay and levels of current pay .


as to the extra pound a day - my maths are this;

3% of say £270 pw = £8.1 - that is what you will have to add on as a minimum anyway to comply with the IFA - now I am thinking… when the benchmark comes back and says… you should raise pay by 18% (say for example) and you ALL say… we are poorly paid.. we need more …. When the Digger Forum starts a campaign, when Prospect supports it… then I think … hey why not add that little extra now… a little extra now.. to what we all know will have to increase…. I suggest an extra 2% (bringing us up to 5% rise) that extra 2% = an extra £1.08 per day …. So yes you are right… it ain’t a pound its 1.08 )

The pensions sure do muddy the waters… the sickness and holidays are only fair… so no argument there.

I really am sorry you re so angry that the wages should rise in this way and don’t really understand what your problem is.. be glad that people are actually working on this.. Not just me, but many others, who take time, effort, and money to be part of a joint solution. I could ask --- why not?

As you say can we also take the personal element out of this you started posting on this thread with comments such as
your pious hopes of monitoring will have to be put on hold.
The threat of not being allowed to advertise on BAJR - not exactly the biggest deterrent in the world
I think someone needs a shot of business realism in this etc

Finally there are many companies that are already paying rates that don’t need to worry about these rises… so some seem to be ok already.

If you ask me whether or not I could absorb an extra £1 (sorry £1.0:face-thinks: then yes I could… would I do it…. Yes I would… because it is the right thing to do. As to pension and sickness and Holidays … that I leave to the law to decide for me.

So non RAOs… you can choose to ignore any rise… or rise by 3% .. you will still have to pay sickness and holiday… - As I say the pension has so many caveats to it that digging staff will not in general be affected… (suitable qualifying period etc….. )

I am telling people to do nothing… I am asking people to start paying more now… rather than wait another year… to show that people mean more than a few extra quid…

If you have any questions relating to your requirements as an RAO .. ask the IFA.


"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu