Ask not what a Union can do for you (2)....

[Jack]

Thanks David for erasing my former attempt (urk). I'll keep this one simple. A single vote, even number of positive and negative choices......

........but what you can do for your union.

[BAJR]

have facebooked this... so lets see some votes come in!

[Jack]

Cheers...

Oh and I voted wont join - other reasons.

My reasons being from my position I feel that joining a Union will not benefit me (although it may have when I was a digger).
Also (at the moment) I feel that my joining a union will have negligible benefit for other diggers but will cut into my already tight budget.

I feel that I can have a much better chance of improving pay and conditions on site for people working for me through negotiations with the management during a job and in the planning stages (for no cost to me).

However I have an open mind on the Union issue.....so convince me.

[BAJR]

Should not really have to as you already answered it

My reasons being from my position I feel that joining a Union will not benefit me (although it may have when I was a digger).

AS to

I feel that my joining a union will have negligible benefit for other diggers

again... thats the point... if everyone says.. my joining will have negligible effect it won't.. if more people said I will join... then it has more effect.. shimples

I can have a much better chance of improving pay and conditions on site for people working for me through negotiations with the management

I have already discussed that with you - so thats a non starter

in the planning stages

thats does not work... :face-confused:

You join a union becuase of more than just pay and conditions... lets get this straight... people (well you dino and dirty) seemed to be convinced that union = strike/pay conditions it is so much more. it is about working together, it is about support, its about training and protection about cooperation and employees rights. Standing together and standing strong.. its about not being bullied or taken for a ride... its about creating a bridge between the companies and the employees its about making a better workplace and create a better profession where archaeology is not a dirty word... most of all its about you. We will have to lay a table, to show whats on offer but remember... you will gain if unionisation happens. And may be happy to take that gain... you won't gain if you do nothing and everyone else says... not me guv.

I thought you had a permanent job Jack... and if thats the case you are better off. Short term gain of a few quid? on long term gain where you stand a chance of gaining more. (and not just money )

The choice has to be made.. I am in a union... no excuses from me... I just did it... millions are in unions.... many worse off than you.. and you have to ask... why are they?

[troll]

I joined one years ago when a certain union announced that it was going to do all manner of things for Archaeologists. I left soon after as they actually just saw archaeology as an untapped source of income. It has become apparent over the years that the truth is....Archaeologists have to do things for themselves. I re-joined the very same union (ten years later!) because I saw it working on the ground and, because it was Archaeologists making it work. No complaints. Join or whinge.....simples :face-approve:

[Ken Denham]

"I re-joined the very same union (ten years later!) because I saw it working on the ground and, because it was Archaeologists making it work."

I agree with that Troll, nothing will be done unless field archaeologists actually get up and start to negotiate with employers as a unified body.

[Dinosaur]

That should be interesting to watch......

[BAJR]

on the sidelines?

[Jack]

Ahar,
now the debate seems to be starting

again... thats the point... if everyone says.. my joining will have negligible effect it won't.. if more people said I will join... then it has more effect.. shimples

Of course that is always the case with democratic organisations. However I have doubts whether a union would or could force an increase in pay and conditions......unless it was a union of just archaeologists.

As for the small-scale effect on pay and conditions that I have had, I've always campaigned in my own way. But I admit this is only on a small scale. Sorting accommodation problems, lifts to train stations and pushing people or encouraging them for advancement, promotion etc.
But I guess this isn't the same thing as broader improvements.

I disagree about your short comment on making sure diggers pay and conditions are sorted out in the planning stage of a project. It is essential to sort out overtime rates, accomodation, transport etc before you start a project.

However...
I agree heartily about your comments on what a union is and what it does. It isn't (of course) just about strikes. A union is there to offer support and their expertise to a member in a wide range of situations. I've actually seen a union effect a pay-rise for archaeologists......it was in a large company though and the union was an archaeology one (I think)

But I still (being dense I guess) don't see how being a member of a union can cause country wide change in archaeology.

Your argument about short term pay for long term gain doesn't hold water....as its not a one off payment. That being my point a fiver (or so) a week soon racks up. I need those savings to pay for staying alive, keeping a roof over my head and keeping my car running and a pension!.

Oh and an argument like millions do it so you should is weak at best.......at one time most of the population of the planet thought it was flat, did it make it so?
:face-stir:

[BAJR]

There are a few weak arguments in there too...

It is essential to sort out overtime rates, accomodation, transport etc before you start a project.

surely you have a standard rate and policy within a company or does it vary from job to job? going up and down...

a fiver (or so) a week soon racks up

indeed it does... and where does this fiver a week figure come from? Of course, for those that remember the benchmarking .... the rates of pay can't be forced on anyone... e specially if some groups remain outside... charging as low as they can and paying staff as little as possible... etc... it once again comes to personal responsibility... I am shocked to hear you have to negotiate simple things like - Sorting accommodation problems, lifts to train stations etc. and good on you for that... but surely a well organised company would not have to rely on < fill in your position > to manage in this way.. it shows a real dislocation with the workforce and even more reason to be part of a union organisation.

Put it this way... I am about to plant vegetables in my garden.. (total cost 15 quid... ) yikes says I... thats a lot of money to pay out... however, I end up with lots more vegtables, I know they are ethically grown with no carrot cruelty and save myself money in the long run, as well as knowing that I can bore people with my humerous odd shaped parsnip story - add to that I will be able to join others at teh village show in August and meet with other people... share tips and hints and again bore people with my humerous odd shaped parsnip story.

it is an investment in the future... it is not a tax or cash that could better be spent on a pack of fags or a pint... it is an investment in a future. You talk about need those savings to pay for staying alive, keeping a roof over my head and keeping my car running and a pension!..... I understand you have a permanent job, so this is a poor state to be in and sympathise with those that may be temporary... (ps... no work, the subs go to circa 50p a week) - with your employer contribution to the pension, that should not be too bad... but lets be honest... if this is where you are now... its not looking good for your future is it... if you barely survive as it is, then its not going to get better... or could it?

Be happy in your condition... or change it