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23rd March 2011, 07:25 PM
The lack of engagement isn't simply down to a few shoulder shrugs. My guess is that some people may not feel these ideas best represent the way forward, and choose to back a different horse, probably for similar reasons that some don't embrace the IFA, CBA, Rescue etc. etc. This is a massive massive undertaking competing (whether it's competition or not it's the perception of competing) with already established groups representing heritage and will require a sustained effort and comittment on the part of many. There will always be those that do, those that are willing to do and simply just those. For a little green fella Yoda was spot on "Do or do not...there is no try".
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
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23rd March 2011, 07:34 PM
I would love to know what it is I am expected to do. Before I get shot down in flames I do do a lot in my own time to try and sell archaeology to the general public. Its all the other things that are difficlut if you do not have a job or any job security ultimately self interest starts to kick in big time:face-stir:
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23rd March 2011, 07:48 PM
Wax Wrote:I would love to know what it is I am expected to do. Before I get shot down in flames I do do a lot in my own time to try and sell archaeology to the general public. Its all the other things that are difficlut if you do not have a job or any job security ultimately self interest starts to kick in big time:face-stir:
Not even sure myself, I guess it's a start by participating in the discussion. I too in my own little way promote archaeology even if it's simply a discussion explaining archaeology and plannng to mates over dinner. I've been working as a multi drop driver (whatever it takes) since my last short term contract back in June of last year. I've done a little bit of independent work with an individual but decided their goals and views of archaeology were not mine. Never the less, buy low sell high 
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
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23rd March 2011, 10:30 PM
Max and Moreno: You're doing something. While there is an absence of leadership (and there undoubtedly is at present and has been for a long time), doing something has to be better than nothing and I guess being prepared to pitch in when the opportunity arises and recognise opportunities to participate and support others are the next steps beyond that.
Since I came back to the forum not that long ago, I've been asking lots of people I know in archaeology if they read the forum and if they participate. The answer is ALWAYS the same and almost always consists of the same points (I sincerely apologise in advance if anyone is insulted by this, that isn't my aim in bringing it up, but I think its worth raising). It goes something like this:
"Yeah, I still read the stuff on the forum sometimes but not as much as I used to. I don't participate anymore because I got fed up with all the bitter old-timers ranting about how bad things are, and often I disagree with some things but feel like there's no point in saying anything because you know the response before you join in."
I don't necessarilly agree with this, maybe because I've started joining in. But the consistency of responses I've received when I've asked that question makes me wonder whether there's something on this forum which sometimes reinforces peoples views - something which creates a self-fulfilling prophesy of sorts. It happens in the site-hut and amongst all of us in conversation, so maybe its not fair to point the finger here. And maybe it means nothing, I'm not sure. I have no doubt that most people in this industry at all levels are pretty down, very frustrated and largely scared at the possibilities for the future if they even have the benefit of being able to see one. But I'm also not wholly convinced that the overall views represented here always represent the views on the ground, and I think we need to be aware of that sometimes. Sometimes they do, of course..........sorry if that's :face-stir:.
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24th March 2011, 09:29 AM
(This post was last modified: 24th March 2011, 09:43 AM by moreno.)
GPStone Wrote:Since I came back to the forum not that long ago, I've been asking lots of people I know in archaeology if they read the forum and if they participate. The answer is ALWAYS the same and almost always consists of the same points (I sincerely apologise in advance if anyone is insulted by this, that isn't my aim in bringing it up, but I think its worth raising). It goes something like this:
"Yeah, I still read the stuff on the forum sometimes but not as much as I used to. I don't participate anymore because I got fed up with all the bitter old-timers ranting about how bad things are, and often I disagree with some things but feel like there's no point in saying anything because you know the response before you join in."
I dropped out back in 2006, and only recently rejoined BAJR, and much for the same reasons. The experience is not so dissimilar.
Quote:I don't necessarilly agree with this, maybe because I've started joining in. But the consistency of responses I've received when I've asked that question makes me wonder whether there's something on this forum which sometimes reinforces peoples views - something which creates a self-fulfilling prophesy of sorts. It happens in the site-hut and amongst all of us in conversation, so maybe its not fair to point the finger here. And maybe it means nothing, I'm not sure. I have no doubt that most people in this industry at all levels are pretty down, very frustrated and largely scared at the possibilities for the future if they even have the benefit of being able to see one. But I'm also not wholly convinced that the overall views represented here always represent the views on the ground, and I think we need to be aware of that sometimes. Sometimes they do, of course..........sorry if that's :face-stir:.
It's been a while since I've been in a site hut, but now that you mention it, it rings bells. I made sure to eat lunch as far away from a site's usual suspects.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
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24th March 2011, 10:13 AM
GPStone Wrote:"Yeah, I still read the stuff on the forum sometimes but not as much as I used to. I don't participate anymore because I got fed up with all the bitter old-timers ranting about how bad things are, and often I disagree with some things but feel like there's no point in saying anything because you know the response before you join in."
I was going to post something like this in reply to this thread. I definitely stopped visiting this forum regularly, and when I do visit now I normally end up skimming a few posts and leaving again. It's not just the old-timers ranting, it's the difficulty of finding and taking useful information out of the many many posts (this is of course an issue with internet forums in general).
edwardajames Wrote:I might be biased, but the way to save the industry for the future in my eyes is to encourage the new generation of archaeologists, those who maybe don't have lots of experience but plenty of enthusiasm and interest. I'm of the opinion that not enough is being done - and we, after all, are the future of archaeology.
This!
I could come on this forum and get annoyed and depressed by all the moaning...but I'm currently doing good archaeology as a volunteer and my local amateur group is very encouraging, so why bother? Regardless of what all the old-timers think, I'm going to pursue archaeology as a career, and if they're not going to be helpful or encouraging then it's hard to see why I should pay any attention to them. Of course, not all "old-timers" are like this (even on here :face-stir .
But pulling out the odd encouraging or useful post from these forums is generally more time than it's worth.
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24th March 2011, 12:12 PM
Quote:Regardless of what all the old-timers think, I'm going to pursue archaeology as a career, and if they're not going to be helpful or encouraging then it's hard to see why I should pay any attention to them.
Therefore you only hear what you want to hear. Why should you pay attention to anyone's experiences if that is the case?
I thought that edwardajames' quote comes from a very personal perspective. He thinks that new graduates getting a job is a major issue because he is a new graduate trying to get a job. I'm not sure that industry bodies should be encouraging more people into entry level positions when there are lots of experienced people out of work. It is only a few years ago that people were walking into digging jobs without any experience, it is just a bit unfortunate if you happen to graduate in the middle of a deep recession. All the best though.
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24th March 2011, 12:12 PM
have always appreciated GP's contributions - but the problem with disinterest and being 'turned-off' is much larger - it is a society wide issue.
most brits do not want to discuss/debate/investigate ANYTHING - "heard it all before, what can i do anyway"
we have been pushing for unity and industry wide collaboration on BAJR - a clear and definite Positive Step Forward - but even this is frequently dismissed by majority as pointless ("yeah but can it change anything?" "look at the IFA..." etc etc)....
I dont know what else to say....Conservative Utter Nutter Tory (C.U.N.T) Osbourne has just announced the grand sheme to de-regulate planning ...i don't know details, but this can not be good for professional archaeology - "oh well what can i do about it?"
(gives up - loosens trousers - bends over - and takes it like a man)
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24th March 2011, 12:14 PM
These are all valuable points... and ones that hear as well. So no offence taken, just a lesson for me (and others to take)
It can be a struggle to pull out the wheat and leave the chaff (no offence chaffers! - I fall into that as well.)
Do you think a section which is locked from addition of posts that takes a thread that is 'intersting' and creates a synthesis would be useful?
Like you I am enjoying the volunteer and public archaeology that I do now... and doom and gloom can be so dis-heartening. But then... BAJR Fed is what it is. And useful criticism like this can help it evolve.
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24th March 2011, 12:46 PM
GnomeKing Wrote:have always appreciated GP's contributions - but the problem with disinterest and being 'turned-off' is much larger - it is a society wide issue.
most brits do not want to discuss/debate/investigate ANYTHING - "heard it all before, what can i do anyway"
we have been pushing for unity and industry wide collaboration on BAJR - a clear and definite Positive Step Forward - but even this is frequently dismissed by majority as pointless ("yeah but can it change anything?" "look at the IFA..." etc etc)....
Thanks, Gnomeking! 
I agree with you about apathy amongst wider society - its a depressing and deplorable situation and is an ever descending downward spiral. However, there are small pockets where it can be overcome. In this forum I think there is the potential for such a situation. The people who have decided to not participate and to not read a lot of what's being said aren't apathetic themselves. They might be here precisely because they are looking for solutions or meaningful discussion in the first place and want to do something but are met by a perception of ultimate and insurmountable negativity (like I said, I don't hold that belief but I can see why someone glancing over these threads might). I can't say that I believe that negativity to be unfounded, let me be clear on that. But I think there might be other ways of presenting stuff and being constructive - I'm just not entirely sure how to go about that right now, including your suggestion, BAJR. I don't know........:face-thinks:
Oxbeast, edwardajames and others - you've hit on a situation and both your positions seem valid. There isn't any feasible entry route into this 'profession' or applicable CPD or career progression once in it which helps towards staying in it. That is indicative of the failings amongst the IfA, others AND ourselves for not having capitalised on the brief moments of security and relative prosperity (I know, laughable, hence why I say relative) we had for a few years. All of us who are here now should take a small slice of blame for that (although the IfA et al might want to take somewhat larger chunk in their clear state of humbleness.......:face-huh .
Oxbeast, on the other hand, makes the extremely valid point that there ain't much we can do about this right now. I'm sorry for that. Please, keep trying and pushing and cajoling to try and get in but please realise the reality of the situation and look around (here, for instance - how pertinent) at all those who have done exactly that, who've weathered out the rough spells and found they never actually fade to good times or security or affluence the harder you try, and ask yourself if its worth the battle and whether you'll be able to make a good contribution at the end of it. If the answer's yes, then good luck to you and there'll be a lot of people who might, in the right circumstances give you a hand if they can..........and now who's being negative! 
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