Kevin's Christmas Challenge: Pick your Wage!!

[ken_whittaker]

I expected my figures to elicit the response of those salaries are “miles off” and “which planet is he on”.... it was so predictable. But the figures are what they are, those salaries exist.

Stick your head in the sand and dismiss them. I personally know the sense of romance impoverishment can bring and understand the conceit that a chosen craft is better for suffering. Never really brought much comfort though.…

Alternatively it might be worth exploring how those figures come about. Its’ no secret, simply a collective adherence to both professional and commercial standards, achieved through market processes, not because of institutional barriers to entry. And yes, this is the realm of professional construction industry services, be they designer/architects, quantity surveyors, planners, etc.

A place at that table has been established, but as a profession we are simply not prepared to collectively take up the seat. Sadly too many vested interests prefer to lead the profession toward greater introspection, marginalisation and the institutionalisation of failure. Preferring instead to evade commercial practices that might raise the bar, as culturally incompatible to the profession’s sense of itself, dismissing the benefits that outweigh inevitable compromises. An embracing, pervading and endemic alienation on the part of many practitioners perhaps makes this outcome increasingly inevitable.

That is simply a planet that, in the end, I chose not to occupy.

[P Prentice]

OK its Christmas Eve and the Ghost of Christmas to Come falls through the door steaming and says 'damn I forgot your present, Kev. OK here's the deal. You can have one wish. Starting with a clean slate you can set the minimum wage levels for all UK based archaeologists effective from Jan 1st '.

So the levels I chose were:

1: fresh from college:?
2: 5 years experience: ?
3: 10 years experience: ?
4: 20 years experience: ?

i would just like to point out that mine was not a fantasy but an attempt to second guess Kevin's

and what about 5: 30 years, and 6: 40 years?

[Wax]

Retiring at 67 is now on the books for many so indeed what should you be on after 45 years in the field? Will the average human body take 45 years of front line digging?
Still one way of creating more jobs for youngsters & reducing pension payouts. Work those who have a job to death. makes sound economic sense

[RedEarth]

I expected my figures to elicit the response of those salaries are “miles off” and “which planet is he on”.... it was so predictable. But the figures are what they are, those salaries exist.

Stick your head in the sand and dismiss them. I personally know the sense of romance impoverishment can bring and understand the conceit that a chosen craft is better for suffering. Never really brought much comfort though.…

Alternatively it might be worth exploring how those figures come about. Its’ no secret, simply a collective adherence to both professional and commercial standards, achieved through market processes, not because of institutional barriers to entry. And yes, this is the realm of professional construction industry services, be they designer/architects, quantity surveyors, planners, etc.

A place at that table has been established, but as a profession we are simply not prepared to collectively take up the seat. Sadly too many vested interests prefer to lead the profession toward greater introspection, marginalisation and the institutionalisation of failure. Preferring instead to evade commercial practices that might raise the bar, as culturally incompatible to the profession’s sense of itself, dismissing the benefits that outweigh inevitable compromises. An embracing, pervading and endemic alienation on the part of many practitioners perhaps makes this outcome increasingly inevitable.

That is simply a planet that, in the end, I chose not to occupy.

I basically agree with what you are saying (although you might not believe it) but it would be useful to have some quantification/figures/examples of the comparable salaries you are alluding too.

There are two major issues, other than the 'vested interests' that you descroibe - again, what does that mean? Examples? Proof?

Firstly, as I said before comparable conditions would be a good start. When you talk to a machine driver and they laugh because they are earning ?XXXX more than you a year just check whether that is on the basis of doing 10 hours work for 10 hours pay, rather than the archaeologists way of 10 hours work for 8 hours pay.

Secondly, there are so many people who are immensely keen to get into archaeology at all ages and levels of experience that it is no wonder the wages are so low - people will accept almost anything and need educating at an early stage in their careers, because by the time they have found out for themselves the next generation of suckers, erm, I mean future professionals, is coming up behind. By vested interests do you mean a willingness to shaft the inexperience and gullible? Saw an 'advert' for a job on Facebook the other day? No idea what the pay or conditions were but no doubt plenty of eager volunteers. Had CV from someone clearly desparate to get into/stay in archaeology, but with about 20 years experience in research projects. No doubt they would have been happy with anything just to keep their hand in. Where's the proper investment in the future, that's what I'd like to know? Rather than when can we earn 70K, which is a fairly pointless question.

[Jack]

1: fresh from college: enough
2: 5 years experience: a bit more than enough
3: 10 years experience: enough to be comfortable
4: 20 years experience: enough to be a bit more comfortable...etc.

But then I disagree with money and economics as the best way to run a society or planet

[the invisible man]

I have to say that having spent 30 years in the construction industry (architecture) I do not recognise Ken's figures. Yes, some people in senior management in medium or large contractor's will command such salaries, but most do not. Most architects with 20 years experience will not be on 78k. Newly qualified architects (careful, not graduates, as a 'graduate; is not yet an architect) won't be anything like the numbers quoted.

My tuppence-worth is:

Fresh: 18-20
5 years: 25
10 years: 25-30
20 years: 30-infinity.

I am assuming some kind of career progression here, as has been discussed by others. Obviously, and to again draw analogies with the real (non-archaeological) world, if you're doing the same job after 5, 10 or 20 years you can expect to be on broadly the same money as you started, with a small extra for 'experience'. Generally speaking, you paid moer for stepping up and taking more responsibilty.

[P Prentice]

come on then kevin - end the suspense

[Bigpicture]

Whether or not Ken's figures are a true reflection of wider construction industry pay scales, it is a little tragic that everyone is so desperate to ridicule such aspiration. I believe this started as a 'fantasy'?

Nevertheless, the point I am more interested in is the disparity between consultant fees compared to most other archaeologists, be they local authority, specialists or field. Perhaps the desire for an increase in industry-wide pay is to save the blushes of the consultant when they present the fieldwork costs of a unit compared to their own advisory costs? I am aware of one consultant who was actually charging more to prepare the WSI than the unit was to undertake a three trench evaluation and report on it (although plant was not included in the price). In these lean times surely any savvy developer would query such bizarre and obvious inequality? Not on the basis of morality but on the basis of 'why am I paying a consultant that much for a ten page document when the contractor can commit that many people days for less?'

[kevin wooldridge]

OK New Years Eve... So the Ghost of Christmas Future left me with a choice......

My suggestions:

New entrants: ?11,800 (UK minimum wage)
5 years: c?25,000 pa
10 years c?31,000 pa (UK average salary)
20 years minimum c?31,000 pa

Happy New Year people ....

[Dinosaur]

Sounds good to me :face-approve:

...although I suspect the boss is going to cringe a bit when he finds out about the 50% pay rise I'm expecting.... :0